#  >  > General Discussion >  >  > Off Topic - General >  >  >  Magick VS Atheists

## Kestor

I wonder if true atheists are immune to any forms of magick. By true atheist I mean a person who honestly doesn't believe in any forms of magick, deietes, occult and spirituality.

There is a saying that if you don't believe in magick you can't do magick. I wonder if it applies to the one whom magick is casted as well. I have met people who practice such arts (some on the "darker" side) and they sustain truly atheistic persons are immune to magick (they can't cast nor can it affect them). Of course, I have met those who pretend they can prove the opposite.

I guess this happens to pure atheists only. If you have an ounce of doubt regarding your atheist belief magick can affect you in a way.

What do you believe ? Any thoughts ?

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## BrotherEnoch

Now there's a good question. I remember a conversation I had with a small group of people years ago. One of them, an atheist said all magical effects on people were explainable by suggestion. He gave several instances... a sorcerer points a stick or bone at a victim and curses them. Over the next few days the person grows ill and dies. Another instance was a so-called "gypsy curse" in which the Gypsy stares at a victim and pronounces a single word with ominous meaning. The word is implanted in the victim and has an increasing effect upon them.

The reply to that was from a person I know to be a powerful magician. He said that those methods were easy to do and of certain effect on believers living in communities who also believe in these methods, but in communities that do not support these beliefs or when dealing with atheists, the best course of action complete secrecy. Everything is to be done in secret and any magical artifacts such as dolls, amulets, etc. were to be hidden where the target would pass near them but never discover them. It was assured that ignorance of the magic (especially a curse) allowed for a greater chance of success. Especially if there were atheists involved. The magician said results in this type of magic cannot be explained by suggestion. The atheist in the conversation said he didn't believe any effect at all could be had at all unless the person to be influenced was made aware of the intended effect and believed that it was possible.

Given a few years of experience and reflection, I am siding with my magician friend.

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## Plarkenstorf

If atheists are immune to magic - and magic is just a manifestation of the placebo effect - what the zogging hell is the point in studying it for practical benefits when you can effect an atheist in untold ways by choosing your words carefully?

If minor psychological trickery is the main reason someone studies magic, why not pick up a book on psychology, go on Wiki or learn some linguistics?

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## serpent

I agree with the people above. You can close your eyes and believe as hard as you want that it's not real. But it won't help .....

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## Kestor

Interesting answers. Of course, the concept of "pure atheist" by itself is open to debate. Because, let's face it: the occult is real. Magick is real. In the course of history many wise and powerful people knew of it's existence and used it (Witchcraft wasn't called "The Craft of the Wise" for nothing.) You can't deny it's existence totally, because it just is there.

As for the immunity issue, I agree with BrotherEnoch and serpent.

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## yodatalk

Being an athiest, who hasbeen "cursed" many times because I piss people off for some reason... 

I can assure, no matter what words are spoken or lines drawn ect. It has no effect. I have yet to see any proof of magic...even with all that drama of being "cursed".

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## Plarkenstorf

Out of curiosity, would you let yourself be cursed willingly by OF members or have the rest of the forum try and make something tangible manifest for you?

Game if you are. We can both be ragdolls.

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## Kestor

> Being an athiest, who hasbeen "cursed" many times because I piss people off for some reason... 
> 
> I can assure, no matter what words are spoken or lines drawn ect. It has no effect. I have yet to see any proof of magic...even with all that drama of being "cursed".


Out of curiosity, what are you doing on an Occult forum if you don't believe in magick? You must have at least a spark of interest.

As for magick, it is very real. Not many are truly skilled in such arts, and most who pretend to be are either con artists or illusionists, but magick itself is ancient, powerful and above all, real. It is one of our natural powers that few know to tap, and because of that most chose to replace spirituality with mundane technology.

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## yodatalk

> Out of curiosity, what are you doing on an Occult forum if you don't believe in magick? You must have at least a spark of interest.
> 
> As for magick, it is very real. Not many are truly skilled in such arts, and most who pretend to be are either con artists or illusionists, but magick itself is ancient, powerful and above all, real. It is one of our natural powers that few know to tap, and because of that most chose to replace spirituality with mundane technology.


I have studied the occult. For a long time. I saw no evidence for it in my studies. 
And anyone who says technology is mundane obviously doesn't know much about it  :Wink: .Very far from it. Crazy complex. I don't see why people can't just look at the sky and go "My, isn't the cosmos lovely tonight, how amazing is this world" and not have to attach outdated mythology to it so its more "interesting" when it's already fascinating to begin with. 
I think the human mind is complex and not fully understood by science yet. Thus I believe that we have the ability to tap that and do things like maqnipulate energy. I do not think this sort of thing is magic at all. 



Oh, I am game. I have done that before actually, with the same result as usual, nothing. Remote viewing is one of the few that has been succsefully proven to me, and I am of the idea it can be scientifically explained.

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## Azakel

> As for magick, it is very real. Not many are truly skilled in such arts, and most who pretend to be are either con artists or illusionists, but magick itself is ancient, powerful and above all, real. It is one of our natural powers that few know to tap, and because of that most chose to replace spirituality with mundane technology.


I do agree with this. I have met many of "Con-Artists" and they can be quite annoying and give the rest of us a bad name.
As for Atheist being immune to the effect of magic(k), I think it depends om the person(what I mean is).... I think some people(whether they realize it or not) have a better natural defense against things like magic(k). Kind of like how some of us are better naturally of Magic(k)..(or energy manipulation..or what ever you wish to call it). 
As for the term "True Atheist" that(to me) really makes no sense. The word Atheist just mean a "lack of belief in god/gods", just like Theist just mean "a belief in god/gods" and really nether are need for a belief and practice of Magic(k) ^_^

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## yodatalk

> As for the term "True Atheist" that(to me) really makes no sense. The word Atheist just mean a "lack of belief in god/gods", just like Theist just mean "a belief in god/gods" and really nether are need for a belief and practice of Magic(k) ^_^


I am a militant athiest I guess then. Lack of beliefe in the super natural all togather. I think it can be explained by science if it is real. I think having "faith" something works just because it's ancient is dangerous and misleading to ones self. One should always look for proof. 
I think it would be hard for most athiests to believe in magic. Some, like me, would be more inclined to be open minded of it, and look at it from a scientific perspective. 

If any of you DO believe in your powers and are confident in them, why don't you sign up to take the million doller challage. I forgot the mans name. He will give a million dollers to anyone who can prove magic/psychic powers exist...(I am using the general YOU. not pointed at anyone in particulare, just curiouse.)

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## Kestor

> If any of you DO believe in your powers and are confident in them, why don't you sign up to take the million doller challage. I forgot the mans name. He will give a million dollers to anyone who can prove magic/psychic powers exist...(I am using the general YOU. not pointed at anyone in particulare, just curiouse.)


Because "we" don't need to prove anything to anyone. We know it exists, and we use it (most of us also have an ethical code in using it, be it self-imposed or otherwise).

And no, magick is not just about mind power explainable by science, even though it contributes. But then, I guess atheists don't believe in things like auras, chakras, planes of existence, *souls* etc. 

As for studying, you can study the occult until you turn blue and nothing can happen. You need to _feel it_. I'm sorry if I seem elitist (it's not my intention), but I guess you need to have some sort of natural aptitude towards it. Talent. Those who don't have it need to work much, much harder, and 99% of the time lose their faith in the occult just because they can't practice/feel it.

I have nothing against science (actually, I do, but I don't want to start an argument  :Wink: ), it's just that I feel it's complexity is unnecessary, most of the time.

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## yodatalk

> Because "we" don't need to prove anything to anyone. We know it exists, and we use it (most of us also have an ethical code in using it, be it self-imposed or otherwise).


Wouldn't showing the world HELP your cause? Wouldn't it make more people interested in studying and advancing the community if they had actual proof of its existance?




> And no, magick is not just about mind power explainable by science, even though it contributes. But then, I guess atheists don't believe in things like auras, chakras, planes of existence, *souls* etc.


And that is an opinion, not a fact  :Smile: . Who knows, the soul itself could be explained by science one day. Also, I have seen auras since I was child and have been astral projecting my entire life. I am not saying it doesn't exist, I am saying it has scientific explanations if it does exist. 




> I have nothing against science (actually, I do, but I don't want to start an argument ), it's just that I feel it's complexity is unnecessary, most of the time.


...and magic isn't "complex".....?

Science isn't that complex. Just depends on how you look at it...

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## Kestor

> Wouldn't showing the world HELP your cause? Wouldn't it make more people interested in studying and advancing the community if they had actual proof of its existance?


Not quite. It would only stir more violence towards us, verbal or otherwise. Not to mention mass-media...
And anyway, those who have the sort of aptitude I mentioned above would seek information without need of public proof. You just have to _feel_ it is there.




> And that is an opinion, not a fact .


Depends on how you look at it. I see it as a fact. Shamanism is quite possibly the oldest religion in existence, and their people not only used their own physical mind powers, but also interacted with the spirit worlds, their inhabitants, seeking guidance, help, and experience from them.




> Who knows, the soul itself could be explained by science one day.


I really hope it won't. So far, almost anything studied by science has become a victim to it's experiment. This planet itself has been a victim to all forms of science time and again. I really wish the soul is not sorted to the same fate.




> Also, I have seen auras since I was child and have been astral projecting my entire life. I am not saying it doesn't exist, I am saying it has scientific explanations if it does exist.


And that's why I don't generalize when it comes to atheists. By "pure" atheist, I meant the kind of person who only believes what the material eyes see.




> ...and magic isn't "complex".....?
> Think about this. 
> Science isn't that complex. Just depends on how you look at it...


I see it like this: science tries to achieve the complex through another complex. A more complicated, empricial route.

Magick (and all it's sub-sections) try to achieve the complex through the beauty and simplicity the human body and soul have been given since creation (or evolution, or however you consider the humans appeared here.)

Yes, science can do a lot of things, and most claim it's wonderful and enhances our lives greatly. I wholehearlty disagree. The benefits are great, yes, but to what cost? How many more can this planet take? It has suffered and suffered time and time again because of ignorant scientists who tinkered with it. We face ecological disaster and an eventual Earth exctinction just because of our hunger for knowledge. And I'm not saying knowledge is bad, just the route science takes is disastrous on the long-run.

Let's consider an important achievment, like space travel, reached by both methods. With science you need to do a huge ammount of modern research and design to build a suitable vessel, start space programs to train future-astronauts in it's operation, provide for proper equipment and (again) train them to use it, all investing a huge ammount of money, time, and effort. But to what end? It has a great chance something will go wrong and everything will fail, and even if it doesn't, you can only go so far into this physical world without proper understanding. It is a very empirical way of doing things. All ending by consuming a huge ammount of this planet's resources.

Now, consider a person (not even a modern person, because I'm sure ancient people could do it as well for countless centuries) astral-projecting. Traveling with their very astral body through great distances, indepent from technology or any artificial enhancers. Imagine the places (s)he could visit. The experiences they would gather. The knowledge they could learn and impart throughout the planes. The wonders they could behold. With no harm done to anyone or anything. All done harmoniously with the natural order. And you don't even need to be a true theist to do it, just a spiritual person. _The possibilities are endless._

Once/If we will transcend our condition, will we need technology? Will we need science anymore? Think about this.

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## Plarkenstorf

> Once/If we will transcend our condition, will we need technology? Will we need science anymore? Think about this.


Empirical methods are used to find the most effective magickal processes for each person. We need the scientific method.

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## 007m

In this world, nothing can be called a "fact".
And if you belive in manipulating energy is like you say that you belive in magick.
The magick is the art of energy manipulation. Is the most "real" and eficient science for energy manipulation, beacouse the today science didn't manage to do it. The form of energy manipulated by magick is one of the most powerfull in the univers, but still unknown to the scientific world.
Every person has it, but it takes time and patience to unlock it. You are what you want to be. You can shape your world in every way you want.Autosugestion, energy chaneling, and many other rituals.
A magician does not need a comunity, or to be accepted. It's useless.
When you will find your life purpose, the real spiritual essence you will be free for ever. 
If you don't belive in who you realy are, you only make your situation worst. Your soul will be reincarnated and depend on the level that you approached your real spirit, your next life will be better or worst.
This is my opinion.

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## Kestor

> In this world, nothing can be called a "fact".
> And if you belive in manipulating energy is like you say that you belive in magick.
> The magick is the art of energy manipulation. Is the most "real" and eficient science for energy manipulation, beacouse the today science didn't manage to do it. The form of energy manipulated by magick is one of the most powerfull in the univers, but still unknown to the scientific world.
> Every person has it, but it takes time and patience to unlock it. You are what you want to be. You can shape your world in every way you want.Autosugestion, energy chaneling, and many other rituals.
> A magician does not need a comunity, or to be accepted. It's useless.
> When you will find your life purpose, the real spiritual essence you will be free for ever. 
> If you don't belive in who you realy are, you only make your situation worst. Your soul will be reincarnated and depend on the level that you approached your real spirit, your next life will be better or worst.
> This is my opinion.


100% Agreed.

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## Plarkenstorf

> In this world, nothing can be called a "fact".
> And if you belive in manipulating energy is like you say that you belive in magick.
> The magick is the art of energy manipulation. Is the most "real" and eficient science for energy manipulation, beacouse the today science didn't manage to do it. The form of energy manipulated by magick is one of the most powerfull in the univers, but still unknown to the scientific world.
> Every person has it, but it takes time and patience to unlock it. You are what you want to be. You can shape your world in every way you want.Autosugestion, energy chaneling, and many other rituals.
> A magician does not need a comunity, or to be accepted. It's useless.
> When you will find your life purpose, the real spiritual essence you will be free for ever. 
> If you don't belive in who you realy are, you only make your situation worst. Your soul will be reincarnated and depend on the level that you approached your real spirit, your next life will be better or worst.
> This is my opinion.





> In this world nothing can be called 'fact'


Is that statement itself a fact?




> You can shape your world in every way you want.


Is that a fact?




> When you will find your life purpose, the real spiritual essence you will be free for ever.


You can see where this is going.

Isn't it contradictory to disbelieve in facts then treat your own opinions with any amount of respect? How are you sure of your own opinions? Is it even a fact that you are sure of your own opinions?

Rejecting the notion of certainty leads to a lot of paradoxes.




> Yes, science can do a lot of things, and most claim it's wonderful and enhances our lives greatly. I wholehearlty disagree. The benefits are great, yes, but to what cost? How many more can this planet take? It has suffered and suffered time and time again because of ignorant scientists who tinkered with it. We face ecological disaster and an eventual Earth exctinction just because of our hunger for knowledge. And I'm not saying knowledge is bad, just the route science takes is disastrous on the long-run.


BBC NEWS | Europe | Wildlife defies Chernobyl radiation

Seems it does just fine after perhaps the worst probable thing science could throw at the world repeatedly.

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## Saeiane

Some spellcraft, yes is psychological (Oh no! I said it! A'yup), and will effect those who believe, sometimes even those who do not (When someone throws dirt from a graveyard in front of your doorstep right before you step over it, it has a bit of a "what the ****" factor). HOWEVER, other spellwork will and can effect even the "unbelieving" because it is natural law. I believe the movie The Skeleton Key is a good focus on the psychological effects of magick, if dreadfully boring to sift through. I know that if I cast a spell on someone who does not believe in magick and DOES know I cast it on them, their own disbelief can become their own magick shield (One of the more repeated practices in defensive magick is stating/believing that no harm can come to you). But, if they do not know, they will most likely be effected.
Then again, I've had at least one instance when someone who did not believe me, was effected. They aren't "immune" because it is a real thing that can and does create change, but if they are aware and disbelieving, they can be protected (ironically, their own disbelief in magick acts as magick, but I made that point already, didn't I?).
So basically, yes, it can, no, it can't and it just might.

I remember a tidbit of information once passed to me that Druids and ancient Celtic practitioners used to astral project before a battle to see the enemies ranks and support, etc.
*Just because (supposing) they didn't believe Mr. Druid could astral project, didn't stop him from seeing their cavalry trying to flank his men. Hahahaha.

*The statement above is hypothetical.

Moo.

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## Plarkenstorf

Wait, so atheists are natural adepts at protective magic?

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## Saeiane

lol, no, I wouldn't go in so far as to say that. Think of it like having thick skin. You can still get cut, but not as deep, if noticeable at all.


As for Science and Magick...
They have a LOT in common, both are "complex" to outsiders, both require a certain amount of imagination, proof (at least, with me. I try to directly link my magick to the effects, while staying impartial.)
I'm a full believe in Magick, and in science, I use them both together with dramatically excellent results. They can be used harmoniously to explain one another, for instance, Quantum Physics (while sometimes regaurded as "pseudo-science") is a beautifully inventive, and interesting perspective on the world that goes well with Magick.
As do other sciences. For a time in my life I actually wanted to BE a scientist.
At the time I cast my first circle, called the elements, FELT the rush, the surge, the electricity, I knew magick was real. It was like meeting that person who you felt you knew your entire life. A, soul mate of sorts.
Astral projection is simply the "projection" of your (mental) consciousness in a vehicle/form (soul) outside of your physical body, on to this worlds twin (Ethereal plane) or on to other worlds (frequencies, if you like QP), remote viewing works the same way, except it is your mental consciousness only, I've used it to read minds, to see other people, anything. We're waves overlapping and interacting with waves, so is magick.

Then again that is my opinion.
I love and respect both science and magick, I believe science works because I see it's results, the same with magick. They are beautiful. It's alchemy in both its forms.

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## Plarkenstorf

> lol, no, I wouldn't go in so far as to say that. Think of it like having thick skin. You can still get cut, but not as deep, if noticeable at all.


Rationality becomes a simple ritual for protection! The more adept at naturalistic explanations you are, the more potent your abjurative skills will be, surely?




> Quantum Physics (while sometimes regaurded as "pseudo-science")


As far as I know, the predictions made by QM (with peer consensus) have been totally accurate. It's not pseudo science at all, it's perhaps the most tried and tested physical theory ever conceived.

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## yodatalk

I've never seen magic work (That could not be explained by science). I have seen science work though. My trust is in that which I can see, I can experiance, I can feel. Not in what I want to be there, unfortunatly. 

I think a lot of it is comfort. +shrugs+ You want something so much you are going to "find" personal proof. In my opinion it is all psychological. Not saying you don't have a right to believe in it

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## Plarkenstorf

> I've never seen magic work (That could not be explained by science). I have seen science work though. My trust is in that which I can see, I can experiance, I can feel. Not in what I want to be there, unfortunatly. 
> 
> I think a lot of it is comfort. +shrugs+ You want something so much you are going to "find" personal proof. In my opinion it is all psychological. Not saying you don't have a right to believe in it


Inclined to agree with you. If someone willingly spreads disinformation it starts to become pretty crappy though.

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## DetonatorZ

> I've never seen magic work (That could not be explained by science). I have seen science work though. My trust is in that which I can see, I can experiance, I can feel. Not in what I want to be there, unfortunatly. 
> 
> I think a lot of it is comfort. +shrugs+ You want something so much you are going to "find" personal proof. In my opinion it is all psychological. Not saying you don't have a right to believe in it


If you haven't felt or experienced magic, it's not magic's fault, it's your fault. Shallow minded pop-science chimps wasting their time at occult forums repeating the same shallow bs again and again will never experience magic. Go read some Stephen Hawking book noob.

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## Plarkenstorf

Perhaps you both mean different things by magic?

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## Saeiane

> If you haven't felt or experienced magic, it's not magic's fault, it's your fault. Shallow minded pop-science chimps wasting their time at occult forums repeating the same shallow bs again and again will never experience magic. Go read some Stephen Hawking book noob.


Now now, we're all just having a friendly chat, they are as entitled to an opinion as you or I.




> I've never seen magic work (That could not be explained by science). I have seen science work though. My trust is in that which I can see, I can experiance, I can feel. Not in what I want to be there, unfortunatly.
> 
> I think a lot of it is comfort. +shrugs+ You want something so much you are going to "find" personal proof. In my opinion it is all psychological. Not saying you don't have a right to believe in it


Well, magick is not something you see or don't see work. Let me put it into terms you might understand, when one preforms a spell, what they do is they gather energy (QP: waves, the stuff reality is made from.) and charge it with mental intent (will, a part of the "mental superhighway" that keeps us all seeing the same **** when we look at a bug), then send it out into the higher frequencies (realities) the wave affects other waves subtly, mingling with them, tugging at them like a puppetmaster to bring about the desired event. It works with the path of least resistance, thus, when I cast a money spell, thousand dollar bills don't shoot out of my arse. hahah. But, I might find a 20 on the sidewalk and/or get a promotion at my job. 

Now, I won't deny that some people want to see their magick happen so badly that they make themselves see it, but, it DOES happen. One of my students, Sarah, I had her do a weather spell for one of her first tests, she had a date with her boyfriend the next day and wanted snow, so, I helped her along a bit (with the energy gathering) and the next day it was so heavily snowy that he almost crashed his truck bringing her to the skating rink, now, is that just good timing? Maybe, but I don't think so. Why? What is my proof? Every- not just sometimes- but every time I have cast a weather spell, it happens. It creates change. I don't watch the weather, so it isn't like I see a snowstorm coming then run outside to call the white stuff down. It just happens.

Another example would be, I had a friend, Emmy, she was going off to the military in Fall of last year, now, this is in Nevada, it does not snow in the fall, hell, some people say we don't even have a Fall (We do.). So, I told her I'll make it snow in the Fall for her, she didn't believe me. (We had a 100 degree summer).
So, I do my thing.
Guess what happens come Fall?
Snow.

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## Kestor

> If you haven't felt or experienced magic, it's not magic's fault, it's your fault. Shallow minded pop-science chimps wasting their time at occult forums repeating the same shallow bs again and again will never experience magic. Go read some Stephen Hawking book noob.


Please keep it civilized. Even though I agree with your idea, I will not have fights in my thread. They haven't insulted us, so you must not insult them, lest a flame war starts.

Thank you.

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## Gazeeboh

I think he means to say he has not experienced "vulgar forms" of magick.
That is to say, nothing like the movies.
No fire balls shooting out of wands, no flying witches riding broomsticks under the full moon, no withering death curse that worked, no glowing spirit come to give a message. Nothing of that sort.

Mostly, magick, is subtle. You won't really notice it unless you mixed up in it, looking for it. You do a spell, you get what you want. Personally, I've caused a house to be burned down, made a doll that hosts the violent spirit of a killer (which has cause many people to injure themselves while holding it), called up a ghost and got an audible response with three other people to verify the event, made a man crash his truck into another car, recieved large sums of money, and battled nasty spirits. Much more, but thats just some of the stuff that sticks out.

Now, most of them, were what you might call coincidence. The money didn't just show up out of thin air. I find it on the ground or someone means to give me a dollar tip but had a fifty dollar bill folded up in there by accident. The house was later scheduled for a controlled burn by the fire department. The doll just makes people hurt their hands usually, even when they don't know about the doll. Totally natural means of occuring.

If you are looking for vulgar magick, good luck. It's hard to find. Not impossible though.

Magick works on atheists, but they won't notice or, like it has been said, they will nullify the effects just because of their stance on things. Think about it, they banish with laughter. "Magick? why you delusion asshat hahahahah". Bam. They are better at it than most of us wizards are.

You should read up on anthropologist who actually encounter the supernatural. One guy saw an honest to god resurrection of a corpse with glowing magick beams and everything. Another guy got mixed up in Malay magick and drank charmed water (with effect) and was given a real life magick amulet that did spooky things. Check it out, great stuff.

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## yodatalk

I do not mean hollywood magic. I mean Magic. The thing we have been talking about. 
I used to study the occult like I have stated before, and I also used ot be wiccan. I am not arguing, I am only stating my opinions. 
I don't see why one of the members here saw fit to be extremely rude to me, but what ever. 
I have studied this, I have been around the occoult community for awhile(I just change my name and don't draw attention to myself). 6 or 7 years to be precise. have seen no evidence of magic, subtle or no, in that time. 

Personal encounters mean nothing to me. Unless it happens to me personally, I do not take others experiances as fact. People lie. People misinterpret things as supernatural. 
I have never seen a spell work that wasn't something that could have happened anyway without the spell. In the same vein, praying has never worked, and thats toned down spell casting in my opinion.

And a note, if anyone else would like to insult me just because i believe something different than you, do it through pm and don't show your ignorance in public. It's embarresing.

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## DetonatorZ

> I do not mean hollywood magic. I mean Magic. The thing we have been talking about. 
> I used to study the occult like I have stated before, and I also used ot be wiccan. I am not arguing, I am only stating my opinions. 
> I don't see why one of the members here saw fit to be extremely rude to me, but what ever. 
> I have studied this, I have been around the occoult community for awhile(I just change my name and don't draw attention to myself). 6 or 7 years to be precise. have seen no evidence of magic, subtle or no, in that time. 
> 
> Personal encounters mean nothing to me. Unless it happens to me personally, I do not take others experiances as fact. People lie. People misinterpret things as supernatural. 
> I have never seen a spell work that wasn't something that could have happened anyway without the spell. In the same vein, praying has never worked, and thats toned down spell casting in my opinion.
> 
> And a note, if anyone else would like to insult me just because i believe something different than you, do it through pm and don't show your ignorance in public. It's embarresing.


Ha Ha Ha Do you call that an insult? What an emotional "man of science" you are. As I mentioned before, all you do is keep repeating the same bs, like "personal encounters mean nothing to me", "I have never seen a spell work", even in your latest post. You never say anything constructive. You know what? If you're such a big science freak, show us some empirical evidence that magic doesn't work. That would be fun. Until then, you're nothing but another guy with his own subjective and newbish opinion lol.

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## yodatalk

I don't have to prove a negative. There is no scientific data saying magic exists. Tghe ones trying to prove then egative need ot provide the proof. 
I have reported your post. Try ot be civil, I have not insulted ANYONE on this board and i do not deserve this treatment.

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## Plarkenstorf

> show us some empirical evidence that magic doesn't work.


http://www.phact.org/e/z/enright.txt




> The long and the short of it is that dowsing performance in the Scheunen experiments was not reproducible. It was not reproducible inter-individually: from a pool of some 500 self-proclaimed dowsers, the researchers selected for their critical experiments 43 candidates whom they considered most promising on the basis of preliminary testing; but the investigators themselves ended up being impressed with only a few of the performances of only a small handful from that select group. And, even more troublesome for the hypothesis, dowsing performance was not reproducible intra-individually: those few dowsers, who on one occasion or another seemed to do relatively well, were in their other comparable test series usually no more successful than the rest of the "unskilled" dowsers (Enright Ã¢â¬ÅWater Dowsing: the Scheunen Experiments,Ã¢â¬Â Naturwissenschaften, vol. 82 1995).


Challenge Applications - JREF Forum

Every single one of those occult practitioners failed even preliminary tests.

Long and short: there's empirical evidence. You're giving this guy a hard time unnecessarily.

Edit: Please don't misconstrue what I'm saying, I'm not saying magick does not exist, I'm simply stating that there're a lot of bullcrap claimants out there which failed rigorous trials.

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## DetonatorZ

That some fakers failed some tests doesn't mean that magic doesn't work. What you provided is a funny joke, not empirical evidence.

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## yodatalk

Thank you Plarkenstorf.

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## Plarkenstorf

> not empirical evidence.


Empirical - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Empirical evidence can sometimes be flawed, certainly. But there _is_ empirical evidence out there that a lot of experienced practitioners of magic fall flat when tested under scientific rigor.

Edit: To Yodatalk. No worries.

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## DetonatorZ

> That some fakers failed some tests doesn't mean that magic doesn't work. What you provided is a funny joke, not empirical evidence.
> 
> To yoda-the-crying-insulted-little-boy: I've never insulted you. Something's wrong with your nerves man. Or maybe you're just another emo kid, who knows. Regarding your post, If science is so omnipotent it should be able to disprove the existence of magic. So don't make excuses.


PS. "experienced practitioners of magic" don't go to freakshows lol

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## DetonatorZ

Hey Yoda, have you been kicked out of the Maths forum for being too emo or what? Really, what are you doing here? Practicing how to make infertile and aimless arguments or what? 'Cause all I hear from you is unsubstantiated garbage.

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## Plarkenstorf

> PS. "experienced practitioners of magic" don't go to freakshows lol


No true Scotsman - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

They thought it was magic, it's within what is generally defined as magic.




> Hey Yoda, have you been kicked out of the Maths forum for being too emo or what? Really, what are you doing here? Practicing how to make infertile and aimless arguments or what? 'Cause all I hear from you is unsubstantiated garbage.


Why're you continuing to insult him?

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## DetonatorZ

1. "Generally" ? Sorry dude but you represent science here, so I want concrete stuff from you. + formal logic and all that stuff. Oh, and clowning around with symbols from logic like you did in some former post of yours is not good enough, sorry.

2. I've never insulted Yoda. He's just immature and emotional, that's all.

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## Plarkenstorf

> 1. "Generally" ? Sorry dude but you represent science here, so I want concrete stuff from you. + formal logic and all that stuff.


You're probably a troll, but I'll bite.

1. Science, as with all human thought processes pertaining to reason, is based around two different types of reason.

Inductive reasoning, and deductive reasoning.

Deductive reasoning is starting from a premise, and reasoning out conclusions, such as "If the street was wet when I went outside then it was probably raining at some point within the last 24 hours." The entirety of mathematics falls under deductive reasoning.

Inductive reasoning is looking at evidence and forming hypotheses and conjectures from them, when hypotheses and conjectures gain enough empirical evidence they become theorems. A major part of any hypothesis not solely in the domain of deductive reason is falsifiability - that means it can be tested and proved.

Hypotheses are most easily tested when they imply something about the state of affairs of reality. For example, evolution and creationism - the appearance of nylonase in some bacteria and those bacteria surviving better is a good argument for evolution.

You made references to that Common Argument thread I made? That's all deductive reasoning, all formal logic is deductive reasoning. Occult claims, such as palmistry, divining for water and energy manipulation only fall under scrutiny from inductive reason. If you're asking for formal, deductive proofs that the occult will never work - no one can provide you with them because application of the occult falls 'out of reach' of only deductive reasoning.

That is not to say deductive reasoning cannot be applied to it, for example astrology takes the premise that planetary alignment and birth time can dictate personality traits - therefore someone born at a time will probably have certain traits. That's deductive reasoning, and it is used as part of occult claims. But as I've said, it would be immensely difficult, if not impossible to test an occult claim merely using deductive techniques.

Now, magic is a wily beast and there're a lot of different branches with different supposed mechanisms - just look at runes and chaos magic.

A magical result is probably best defined as "any direct physical manifestation incontravertibly and intentionally caused by someone's actions that cannot be explained through any naturalistic means." 

Such as palmistry (and ironically Rorschach tests) through cold and warm reading respectively - they're magical claims, but their effects are testable and often indistinguishable from the results of people using _merely_ naturalistic methods.

For example, ball falls to the floor. If invisible, ethereal goblins drag it down to the same spot as interacting with the Earth's gravitational field would... The former's unfalsifiable, and doesn't explain that much, from the point of view of inductive reasoning it's useless. You could however stipulate that praying to the invisible, ethereal goblins will make the ball fall - and the ball will fall.

Testing here would mean making a control group, in which two balls fell, one was prayed for by Invisible Ethereal Gobling Worshippers,, the other wasn't prayed for at all by Filthy, Dirty Agnostic Atheists. Both fall, it's concluded that praying to the goblins has little effect.

So no, the likelyhood is people will not provide you with any direct deductive proof that magic will not work. Please note however - that does not mean all occult claims are true and to demand one is very counter intuitive towards studying the occult.

tl;dr, demanding strict logic here's folly.

And the reason I raised the idea of the No True Scotsman fallacy is that we may just differ on semantics, and you can quite easily just define what magickal and occult claims are differently from me, thus supposedly invalidating an argument made against a concept.




> Practicing how to make infertile and aimless arguments or what? 'Cause all I hear from you is unsubstantiated garbage.


You called all of what he wrote unsubstantiated garbage, most people would find that quite offensive - especially considering that he's been reasonably civil to you.

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## yodatalk

> 2. I've never insulted Yoda. He's just immature and emotional, that's all.


How? I have yet to antagonize you yet you continue to call me names. 
I think it is very clear who the emotional and immature one is here. 

Thanks to everyone else who have been so open minded in this discussion. I am not here to disprove your beliefs. I am here because I like to have different opinions and I like getting other peoples ideas on how the world works. I myself do not believe in magic, nor do I believe in god/gods/goddess/anything of the sort. I think everything in this world will infact be explained by science in time. That is my belief! I am not telling you to believe it, or even asking you too. I am just stating it. 

I personally do not believe that magic has an effect on atheists because we simply do not believe in it. In the end your argument could be that we do see the effects of a spell and just rationalize them without any thought to the supernatural and you could be right, BUT when one cannot explain a happening rationally, one might think of the supernatural, until finally the exact reason for the event is discovered, in which case it would no longer be supernatural.

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## Kestor

> When a topic has Vs in the title it doesn't make it a brawl or UFC... Keep it clean please.


I'm sorry if the title has been misunderstood. I meant, of course, the effects of magick working "on" persons who share a certain belief (or non-belief, in this case). And considering you can also put a curse on someone, I thought "Versus" would be appropriate.

I *never* meant it as a spot for flame wars.

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## DetonatorZ

> You're probably a troll, but I'll bite.
> 
> 1. Science, as with all human thought processes pertaining to reason, is based around two different types of reason.
> 
> Inductive reasoning, and deductive reasoning.
> 
> Deductive reasoning is starting from a premise, and reasoning out conclusions, such as "If the street was wet when I went outside then it was probably raining at some point within the last 24 hours." The entirety of mathematics falls under deductive reasoning.
> 
> Inductive reasoning is looking at evidence and forming hypotheses and conjectures from them, when hypotheses and conjectures gain enough empirical evidence they become theorems. A major part of any hypothesis not solely in the domain of deductive reason is falsifiability - that means it can be tested and proved.
> ...


Thanks for the elementary school level bs lesson. I bet Yoda enjoyed that.

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## Plarkenstorf

If you're going to try and engage someone in a debate, please don't resort to personal and ad hominem attacks to prove a point. Because I might go home and cry and cut myself again.

If you're just trolling, good to hear.

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## DetonatorZ

Nah... The only trolls here are you and Yoda. You know, I know that personal experiences are nothing to you 2, but many people on this forum have had such experiences, so from that point you 2 can yap your heads off and give all the pathetic kindergarten logic and philosophy lessons you want, no one will really care. Anyway, I don't mind you 2 so have fun.....

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## Saeiane

> 1. "Generally" ? Sorry dude but you represent science here, so I want concrete stuff from you. + formal logic and all that stuff. Oh, and clowning around with symbols from logic like you did in some former post of yours is not good enough, sorry.
> 
> 2. I've never insulted Yoda. He's just immature and emotional, that's all.


Detonator, you may not be "insulting" Yoda in your opinion, but you're being generally unpleasant, and have in fact been launching personal assaults. Now, I'll kindly ask you to either state your opinions in a non-personal way (I.E. Do not say things like this "He's just immature and emotional") or stop posting here. Enough is enough, there is no room for insults in a logical debate.

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## Jastiv

Logic is a subject taught by some of the demons in the goetia.

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## yodatalk

I think the catholic church has the best answer out of all the theist when dealing with science. Modern Science did not exist during the time of jesus, correct? So how then could the bible offer up evidence without being mystical about it. 
So things like the native medicine men/the shaman, had no basis of modern science. They had mysticism. And they had passed down information from passed generations on the qualitys of local herbs and their propertys, over years and years of populating the area. They did not know WHY these herbs did what they did, all they knew is that they did it, so it obviously would be attributed to "the great spirit (wakan tanka)", and the people educated in shamanism would heal the others by using these herbs in conjunction to praying to the great spirit ect. (I cannot say for their war dances and ritual prayers. Though I have never seen a rain dance bring rain and I am part of a tribe ^^)

Add modern science to that and you can take the mysticism out. The herbs cured the tribes men and women, not the ritual.

I just think in the end science will eventual explain all things. We just aren't there yet, so mysticism is still present in some forms. So even if a curse worked on me, I would still consider it science rather than mystical, because I believe it can be explained. Thus there is so mysticism, and then their is no magic...it has become science, more experiment than hinderence. Everything can be explained, eventually.

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## Gazeeboh

Magick isn't science.
Religion isn't science.
Science is Science and will only be applicable to a scientific worldview.
Whatever that means.


You can't really compare the two from the two different worlds. Of course they are at odds and of course you will not find a unification. How could you?

All of these things have their place in our reality. We use science to understand our outside world, or personal life experience. The best thought as to how things work is valued above others and expounded upon. I would rather chop wood with an axe than with a stone or prayer.

Religion can give us meaning to otherwise meaningless events. Sh*t happens but it lessens the blow when we have a structure to place it in. When we have some kind of device to deal with it. Some human "feeling" to an otherwise cold and impersonal universe or scientific standpoint.

And magick. Magick is the bridge between the phsycial reality we all seem to share (science lords over this domain), and the outer realms of the human experience. This place that it links to is one of feeling and emotion and power. It doesn't matter if you think this place is the inner worlds, the inner workings of the mind, the brain, or if they are outside, just beyond the world we know so well. 

Not unlike other art forms, it cannot be measured or quantified. The JREF challenge would be similar to a science team calling in "artists" to "prove" art exists by producing "empirical evidence" of such a claim. These things can only be experienced by the human or human involved. You can't put on a spread sheet where you go when you hear a beautiful song, or view under a microscope the realm that trance can take you too.

You've got to feel it and live it. That does not make it any less real than mathematics or cutting edge physics. You can still summon a demon one day and calculate the next step in pi the next. Feel and live.

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## yodatalk

I do not believe in spirits. I do not believe in god/s. I do not believe there is an afterlife. Thus Religion, magic, mysticism has no place. Anything unusual that can't be explained by science I believe is just a natural phenomena that can eventaul be explained.

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## Gazeeboh

Well, they don't have a place, in your world.
Try applying cultural relativism here.

In your worldview, science is all that one needs to unravel the mysteries. Enough time and enough thought will yeild all the answers man searches for and maybe a few more. There is nothing beyond normal, no super normal, and everything is rational and logical.

In others world view, science cannot or has not explained the mysteries. Science might have limits as to what is can grasp and mysticism goes beyond those limits. There are events that defy reason and logic, at least our understanding of things, and are considered super normal.

The best bet is to lay down in the middle. You have to accept, that at least to some people, spirits are real, gods are real, things beyond the everyday are real. They also have to accept that to you, there is no room for such things in the logical mind.

To myself though, I think everything is totally subjective. Not one of us shares the exact same world. It is all literally, in our heads. Even scientifically, external stimuli (if they are really out there) arouse our sensory organs which turn the world into electrical signals that shoot about our brain. We don't actually see THE WORLD we just get our own interpritation of it, filtered by our biological lenses. nothing is true everything is permitted

I'm 100% with you though yoda when you say everything is natural. How could something not be natural? If it happens, it happens. You have good insight here.

Just curious, have you had any werid **** go on in your life? Like, a ghost, or some sacred moment. Maybe you just naturally produce low levels of DMT?

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## 007m

@Plarkenstorf
I belive in my own facts, beacouse i belive everybody can live by his spiritual rules.
There are some unchanged physical facts, but i'm not talking about that. It looks like you dindn't get my message anyway, so it is useless for me to explain my chaotic theory of life.
I'm not a very religious person or a obsessed magick apperntice or a 100% science beliver. But I've seeked and I've found the partial answer...but not my life purpose. Not yet. I'm still young, and I have enough time.(or at least i hope so)

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## Plarkenstorf

> @Plarkenstorf
> I belive in my own facts, beacouse i belive everybody can live by his spiritual rules.
> There are some unchanged physical facts, but i'm not talking about that. It looks like you dindn't get my message anyway, so it is useless for me to explain my chaotic theory of life.
> I'm not a very religious person or a obsessed magick apperntice or a 100% science beliver. But I've seeked and I've found the partial answer...but not my life purpose. Not yet. I'm still young, and I have enough time.(or at least i hope so)


Didn't get your last message, I can't actually remember seeing it, sorry.

Explain your chaotic theory of life, go on, why not, even if I can't understand it someone else on the site might be enlightened by it.

Or it could spur on further debate.

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## ZeldaFitz

No one has to believe in magick to have it used against them, sometimes it is best not to know.

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## daecon

It can work the other way around too. There are some people who for whatever reason are remarkably resistant to magic, to the extent that most magic simply ceases to function around them. As a result they are not only never witness to anything magical, but it becomes impossible for them to conceive of a magical effect and they almost invariably become atheists. Some believers have claimed that is what happened to the illusionist and psychic debunker, James Randi. He never finds authentic magic because authentic magic cannot function in his presence.

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## ZeldaFitz

I will say it again, they don't have to believe and they don't have to know whether good or bad, no one is resistant to magick, no one. They just will chalk it up to coincidence good luck or bad luck.

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## Norin

Oh my, what an interesting thread  :Smile: 

I am coming pretty much from the same place as *yodatalk*, the only thing I've seen work repeatedly is Remote Viewing. The rest of it was inconclusive, at least for now.

But I do like this thread, I like it a lot, because real challenges have been made and accepted. Sounds to me like time for action, not logical forum debates about what could or could not work.

Can anyone put their "money" where their mouth is, so to speak ? At the risk of sounding very ignorant of the way magick works, can anyone produce some results that are very unlikely, for *yodatalk* ?

Things like having 2 fractures in the same month are statistically very unlikely. Getting 2 or more diseases of any sort, in short succession, having one's home flooded and then struck by lightning shortly after, etc etc.

These are just ideas of things that would certainly send a skeptic at least thinking about matters of magick, and *yodatalk* please share with us any other ideas of what would constitute good and acceptable tests in this case, good enough to score some points.

And remember, it's not bad karma if your victim _asks you_ for bad things to happen  :Big Grin:

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## I-S-O-N

> I do not believe in spirits. I do not believe in god/s. I do not believe there is an afterlife. Thus Religion, magic, mysticism has no place. Anything unusual that can't be explained by science I believe is just a natural phenomena that can eventaul be explained.


Here is something you can have fun with.

Devote most of your free time to studying demonology. Focus on nothing else.
After three weeks, begin to take walks at night.

Then you will come back here screaming about how beelzebub jumped out from the shadows of an alley way and attacked you. 

Would it be real? Only one way to find out. The fact you will see demons if you do this however, is guaranteed.

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## Infernal Elukka

[QUOTE=yodatalk;19606]
And that is an opinion, not a fact  :Smile: . Who knows, the soul itself could be explained by science one day. Also, I have seen auras since I was child and have been astral projecting my entire life. I am not saying it doesn't exist, I am saying it has scientific explanations if it does exist. 

So...why then have you waited until now to just say that? I completely agree that magic is something that can be explained scientifically; it is a part of science. That's something that I don't understand why some of you are grouping them differently. Shouldn't we be trying to know, not believe? It looks to me like you're on the same page but you're just trying to emphasize that you're not trying to just believe in it, but know it for what it is? 

And as for the whole suggestion of the spells/curses, yes, its true that that does have an influence. But it's because we all have the ability to manipulate energies like you said and the more you excersize that power like with your sixth sense the more you can influence those energies. The more powerful you are the more likely you can influence those who are ignorant of what is going on. It's all pretty much a battle of will power. You see that the religious (as in holy, christian, etc) are weak-minded/illogical because they don't believe in personal strength because they leave everything they can't understand up to their god and waste their time thinking that to question and try to figure things out is evil so no progress is made. But people who try to manipulate them with occult may find it hard to because even though their minds are weak they still build up their faith, petty as it is and that is the personal strength that they don't even know they're using. 

After all, why has there always been the few of us who question their faiths? Because we realize that their religion is pointless bullshit and from that we grow stronger than them. It's all survival of the fittest. The only reason why there are so many more stupid people than smart people is because technology keeps more of everyone alive. And for some reason the wrong people get put in power in most societies... But through over a millenium of oppression and ignorance, people like us have still survived. 

As for me, yeah I go by what is proven. Mostly what is spiritual/magic that has been proven to me have been intuition, dream foresight (but predictions are not set in stone, they are mainly what is most likely to happen if you don't do something to change it. we are not part of a plot in a story), and auras/energies.

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## Shaolin32

well i really dont care if people think what i practice works or not no magician should, i did start my journy in the occult thru shaolin training though..... so like any other qi gong master would say it doesnt matter because if my qi doesnt stop you my fists will. lol and i do have a curiosity of aitheism (i hope you dont take offense i really am just curious) if you truelly do not believe in anything than why not just kill your self and find out? i mean if nothing happens after you die than why go on suffering here on earth? im just wandering because if i were aitheist thats how i would view things, which is why im not aetheist. i mean really other than spiritual accension what is worth living for? money? women? possesions? children (who also have no point, so what was the meaning for their creation)? im sorry im just at a loss when it comes to aitheists but like i said i really dont mean any offense by this i believe everyone should believe in what they want. hell im just glad your beliefs dont make you want to burn me at the stake XD

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## Shaolin32

oh i forgot to point out most scientist have been occultists... look it up, the father of rocketry, the guy who made the first pressurized space suit, hell even isaac newton who wrote the framwork for physics..... i mean come on man im a physics major for crying out loud and i will be the first to admit science has its limits and huge scientific gains usually coordinate with spikes (gained interest) in the occult...... you know gaining hidden knowledge or knowledge of all sciences.... even a mathematician will tell you that with enough mathematical prowess you can predict the future and if that is not a form of magic i dont know what is. but heres a request from me.... check out Dr. Edgar Mitchelle, the sixth man to walk on the moon, and his theory of quantum hologram. also check out a man by the name of Carl Jung. i cant blame you though, the people using magic for wicked purposes dont want you to know that it exists, occult means secret knowledge, so do you really think you can get a few books and they will tell you exactly how to bend reallity to your will, man it takes alot more work than that. maybe i was to heated on this topic?

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## Dajai

> I wonder if true atheists are immune to any forms of magick. By true atheist I mean a person who honestly doesn't believe in any forms of magick, deietes, occult and spirituality.


It's difficult to address this. We would have to apply it on an individual basis. The most interesting aspect to the question for me is just how seductive occult philosophies, beliefs and concepts might be.

To discover a person so heavily guarded and in that much control over themselves that, even after reading a series of books on - for example - the art of hexcraft, that they do not demonstrate the slightest amount of doubt when then lead into a room with 13 women, are then told that the women are all witches and a ritual is then performed designed to curse the man.

If this man does not suffer from the slightest glimmer of after effects - even if the display is of a highly theatrical nature, having no grounding in witchcraft related literature and that the 13 women were indeed not witches but actors - If this man can forget this and not even jest about it.

Then I might have to bow to this man and request that he teach me his methods if I were not privy to additional knowledge.

Even within the realm of psychology, one cannot ignore such influence with knowledge of the collective subconscious. If this theory is correct, then all beings thought of - created by man or mind - by book or vision - remembered or forgotten - exist and are every bit as real as you or I. Maybe even moreso than us if we are to believe that we know exactly where we are.

Given this concept, how can anyone be truly immune from magick?






> There is a saying that if you don't believe in magick you can't do magick. I wonder if it applies to the one whom magick is casted as well. I have met people who practice such arts (some on the "darker" side) and they sustain truly atheistic persons are immune to magick (they can't cast nor can it affect them). Of course, I have met those who pretend they can prove the opposite.


From personal experience I have undergone a certain initiation for which I thought I held no belief at the time (of course I cannot know whether my unconscious mind already believed). It was a case of "prove it!" from my stand-point. And it was proven to me with great strength.

My current standpoint, therefore, is that occultism can be a true science. If a procedure works, you don't need any belief; simply that following a set method will repeat the same results - as I understand ceremonial magic to be.

Of course, there are counterpoints to this such as belief in the strength of one's will; which I also happen to prescribe to, despite the apparent contradictions. Belief certainly should be a variable and not a constant. Or maybe better viewed as a singular element that is fuelled by "beliefs" and that the nature of such beliefs are not important so long as they promote the individual - which would lean more towards chaos magick and Satanism.


EDIT: Grammatical error.

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## captainrackham

> I wonder if true atheists are immune to any forms of magick. By true atheist I mean a person who honestly doesn't believe in any forms of magick, deietes, occult and spirituality.


I'm sure that there's plenty of people out there that lack imaginative quality to believe in things they can't see, energy, what have you..

but even a true atheist on some level has to believe in *themselves* nontheless.

I imagine that non-believers in the world make the more powerful believers, the more hateful -- the potential to be the most loving. The more dull, the potential to be the most brilliant.

that being said, whatever lies dormant or active inside someone doesn't change the raw possibilities for effectiveness, I feel.

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## captainrackham

> There are many things, a whole fuckin WORLD FULL OF THINGS, that we do not have to invest any belief in whatsoever in order for them to work; I do not have to believe that the sun will rise, and yet it will; I do not have to believe that I will eventually die, because some day I will (sometimes it's the only thing to look forward to); I do not have to believe that your mother is fat enough to throw the Harmonic Alignment out of whack, because it was in Newsweek Magazine, et cetera.


This is well put by Scarlett ^ .. there are some things people choose to agree with or deny -- regardless of how irrefutable it really is.

This probably covers just about anything in life regarding believing or disbelieving.

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