#  >  > Occult Discussion >  >  > Witchcraft Origins >  >  >  How much of Old Craft Is Present In Wicca, If Any?

## justinkl75

Does the Wiccan religion actually contain anything from the actual Old forms of paganism and witchcraft practiced for hundreds of years before now? Or does it just claim to? Traditional Witchcraft and Wicca seem almost nothing alike.
For example, did Traditional witches ever do their rituals naked? Or is this something totally new?

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## BalanceDragon

Traditional witchcraft has nothing to do with Wicca. Wicca does often try to imitate it, but the best it can achieve is a copy of an imitation. Witchcraft was never meant to be exploited in that way, and hopefully never will be.

Not really. Wicca is basicaly just neo-pagansim. I wnet to the UK and met pagans and witches over there... in 'celt country' you might say, and was not very surprised to find that we over here have been doing things a bit backwards in comparison to their practices. The whole 'calling of the watchtowers' thing is something Gardner had taken from the Golden Dawn, not from pagan practice. In celt paganism there are 'the four treasures' which can be used as symbols for the directions and elements, but doesn't have to be. Their elemental directions are not the same as those practiced by neo-pagans over here either. 

If you want to find real witchcraft, you must go to the practitioners of witchcraft, not resort to reading the new age stuff that bookshleves are overflowing with. There are some good books on strega witchcraft, but once again, don't look for gold in shelves full of lead. The whole naked bit came with the new age movement at the tail end of the feminist in the late 60's, a time in which wicca got it's first boost of empowered women who were tired of male dominated religions. I don't know if ancient witches celebrated naked for sure - there was propagandah to that effect during the Inquisition days, but then they said they flew on pitchforks and brooms through the sky as well.

If the witches back then did it or not, there is no way to tell as they never really wrote things down for fear of compromising the sacredness of their magic as well as fear of having solid evidence against them if the church officials caught them. Fertillity was a strong motif in magic back then, but that was again paganism and not witchcraft per se.

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## Astral Eye

Er, Wicca and witchcraft where once one and the same, though wicca had no name back then.

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## BalanceDragon

Please research HOW Gardner created wicca - by introducing judeo-christian ceremonial methods, practices of the Golden Dawn, the Masonic order, and bit and pieces of survivng celt tradions to form his religion. For one of many concurrances, check out Owen Davies "Grimoires-A history of magic books". in which he discussed how Gardner pieced these things together for his first book to promote wicca itself. Then research witchcraft through athropology - not your Llewellens new ge books, and you will find the historical truth. Wicca is a modern creation, despite the meaning of the word itself. It was merely a word, not a religion. There are hundreds of such words relating to the hidden knowedges present in those days, none of them a religion.

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## Astral Eye

Gardner modernized the ancient religion. He brought, slightly changed it, but otherwise just published it.

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## BalanceDragon

Gardner did no such. Wicca is not witchcraft, even Bonewits and other's within the church of wicca say this. You need to actually research a little. Do something other than just disagree.

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## Astral Eye

Wicca was taken, and evovled, from a nameless nature religion. It, like most religions, then absorbed a couple of outside ideas/ symbols/etc, and, vioula, Wicca is born.

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## BalanceDragon

But witchcraft is not and does not conform to outside influences, nor is it necessary to believe in the God/Goddess deities to practice witchcraft. Witchcraft is much much older. Gardner created wicca in 1950, witchcraft was born in the caves of early man. Evidence of it in cave paintings still exist as mute witnesses to the practice of this craft before the days of recorded history. Witchcraft contains none of the things found in wicca. Wicca is formed in imitation of witchcraft - and I do not say this as an insult, or as a bad thing - but it is nothing like nor will ever be anything like actual witchcraft. Witchcraft varies from culture to culture, but at it's core is the same no matter where you go, or what country you may experience it in. It needs nothing 'added' to make it whole. It is a much stronger, deeper vibe than wicca. Wicca is very much on the surface, and will most likely stay on that level, unless the recreationsts and paleo-practitioners within that movement can successfully move the religion in the right direction to make it possible.

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## chestermccoy

I would say that the two are very similar to the relationship between Judaism and Christianity. Christianity still follows the old testament, but much of what happens in the Gospel and the New Testament completely changes the way that they interpret it. Similarly Witchcraft is more of a 'discipline' i would say, than a religion. Wicca incorporates many aspects of Witchcraft, however Wicca as a religion is vastly different. Just because a man believes in atoms, for example, doesn't mean that he must be a scientist. As far as 'Naked Rituals' I can think of a couple that happened long before the 60's and feminism. The Lupercalia, for example, when mostly naked man ran about through Rome whipping women to make them fertile, or virtually any rite used to honor Bacchus. So try not to think of Wicca as some bastardization, because its not (And I would call myself unbiased, as I am most certainly no Wiccan). It is a religion borne of insight, powerful and ancient symbolism, and a sprinkling of Witchcraft and Folk Magic practices.

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## redmonk

Wicca has nothing to do with ancient whitchcraft , I agree.

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## BalanceDragon

The closest tradition I saw to the art of witchcraft I was shown would be Strega. There were many similarities, but from a different culture, so therein lay the differences. Even in the UK, different parts of the UK had different methodologies of the same practice. Each tended to favor the elements they were surrounded by, and family traditions that grew in those communities grew stronger in the enfusing community rites as well. I have no problems with recreationists, but what I have read on the internet and books on the subject tend to avoid or actually skip past what has been found and documented in the feilds of archeology and athropology.

What I do know is the witchcraft is something natural and deep. It cannot be contained by rules or theories found in books today on the subject either. It is something wild, and too free to be made a dollar off of. It is a way of life that does not exist for convenience sake. Sorry if the experiences differ - in fact I wish those that taught me could have taught everyone. Hell, even the ones I talked with in the UK would be worthy teachers of a craft that really barely exists over here. Sure there are plenty of 'copies of an immitation' of it, but unfortunately I understand why many of these do not teach: they do not want their craft exploited. If it is something your truly love and care about, you protect it. Exploitation tends to suck the life out of anything it markets.

It is witchcraft, believe what you wanna believe. Whatever thrills your gorilla. The methods we choose are those we are strongest in or can understand best. There is no applicable guide or rules in our personal experiences, and many are pleased by what is before them, so why go further? I will not define it, and will only define what i have experienced, learned, and witnessed. This should mean nothing to any but myself.
Will rethink responding in the future.

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## Lothfavnir

I don't only think that Wicca is a modern construct, but I also think that most neo-paganism, satanism and most of the other things are as well. This is not a trend that is isolated to the occult traditions. Even the big religions have faced the changes. We call it change in society or technological change. But, what if this is something else? What if there is a change in life itself we are witnessing? If the human condition changes, then we have to rewrite all religion. And, coincidentally this is happening now.

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## Belasko

Wiccans are fucking assholes. They want an excuse to run around naked.

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## Iza

I hate Wiccans.

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## Ryan

Wicca is just too fluffified for my tastes

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## Jackal

I know hardly anything about Wicca or Witchraft for that matter aside from candle magick (If thats even classed as witchcraft) and I have only used that once for a curse!

But I would say from what I've seen that its too hard to really define witchcraft, as it all depends on tradition and region, I've looked around on Wicca sites, a lot of them seem to think there way is the only way that works, This made me snigger considering they have taken every system and with absolutely nothing original involved said "This is ours and it is ancient knowledge" Yes its ancient, but none of its theres!

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## Iza

I hate Wiccans, a religion that wants to run around naked and pretend they know their ****. Candle magick dates back to Babylonians.

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