Thread: How To

"To engage Phnouthis for a moment; do you not think that severe mental things maybe caused by entities which maybe pushed away by drugs? the brains chemical reactions are a manifestation of spiritual energy. by the same token if u can effect your brain it may effect the energy and make it 'not so tastey'."

I have good reason to think so. About 7 years ago, I was helping my neighbor at the time (he was also my friend and employer), George, install insulation in an attic-like upper room which we had just built as part of a new addition on his house. After lunch, I took about four puffs from his bowl, and then went upstairs to resume my work. After a short while, I began to see my thoughts in front of me, as if on a television screen: I witnessed an image of my mom's boyfriend transmorph into a solar-radiant, benevolent figure handing gifts out to little children, and thence into the roadrunner, with his characteristic, "meep meep." I started to laugh hysterically, but upon reflection I couldn't tell if I were laughing out loud, of if I were simply laughing internally. My inability to settle on a conclusion made me somewhat uneasy, and the next thing I knew, my own bodily appearance was beginning to take on a cartoonish form--I was growing the snout of an animated moose. I couldn't stop it; I exclaimed to myself: "Holy ****, I'm turning into Bowinkle." I rushed downstairs, intent on telling my boss that I had to go home, that I was turning into an animated moose, into Bowinkle. After reciting this to myself, I realized how ridiculous I was being; the hallucination had already ceased, so I went back upstairs to resume my work. As I began cutting the insulation, however, there descended upon me this compulsion to slash myself with the box cutter I was using. As I fought to dismiss such thoughts, they only became stronger, until, in panic, I dropped the box cutter, and deliberated about whether I should go home after all. After recovering my sense, I would then pick up the box cutter and resume my work--I repeated this process several times. Eventually, the compulsions became so powerful and present that I felt them around me, as if they had coalesced into a separate and intelligent entity that was ubiquitous around me; my panic reached its zenith, but as I erected myself to deliberate again, I didn't drop the box cutter, and as I peered down that darkended, long attic room, I felt that presence of pure wickedness that permeates the ambience of the best horror movies--but suddenly the compulsion changed its target, pronouncing its intent within me with that degree of clarity and decisiveness that characterizes the most definite thoughts: "Go downstairs, and slash George." I was horrified! I fought and writhed, and argued with it, but it was much more clever, and was able to use "my own" mind to manipulate my objections by instantaneously calling into question the background assumptions of those objections, even before they could articulate themselves to my representational understanding (this is perhaps why the devils are considered fallen angels, not just nature spirits; they have higher-than-human mentality, but with the instinctual set of the fiercest natural predator). This went on for quite sometime, and my attention on this aspect of "my" consciousness, did reveal it to my interpretation as a distinct and foreign entity that had somehow infiltrated my barriers. Needless to say, arguing with it entagled me more into its web, for, as I reflected at the time, it was itself supplying me with the combative spirit by which I could argue; argument, fighting, hostility, and the like were its very nature. Eventually, after realizing that I couldn't fight it, I resolved to maintain the "happy thought," no matter what it threatened or attempted; after meeting with success by this method, I stumbled upon the close association of the sun whose rays were breaking through the octogonal window above me, and the happy thought which appeared to be my only salvation. At length, the "devil" went away; I burst out laughing, with the intuition that somehow, the whole universe was emanating from my heart.


I do not think that the depression itself is an evil spirit, but, rather, that depression can be the psychological symptom in our organism of the active presence of such a spirit. Nevertheless, for those who follow the Path of the Serpent, I do not see how periodic bouts of depression can be avoided.

If I were indeed a Magus, I would have to conclude that the manifestation of anti-depressants in the human sphere is brought about by spirits--and is, in some way, inseparable from their ever active, creative organization of matter. I am not inclined to think, however, that these entities are pushed away; intead I would say that we have chemically altered the activities of the emotional/instictual layers of our psyche in such a way, that we are no longer capable of making that confrontation with those aspects of existence which dropped our confidence, certainty, and thus joy in the first place; we have, as it were, and at best, found a way of returning to those more pleasant areas of cognition, those more in accordance with the emotional needs of our creaturely selves. However, my assessment would not cover all types of depression, as "depression" is merely a name for a collection of symptoms that can have a variety of different causal histories.

First let me say I am not completely an atheist or physicalist. I do value and appreciate their paradigm and personally uphold Reason. I find that in the spiritual community, whether it be witches or magicians or whatever, Reason gets thrown out of the window. There is a thin line between fantasy and magick. Personally I balance Reason with Spirituality, both are invaluable. Call it the best of both worlds. I can be just as much an atheist as a witch.

As for pharm drugs to treat the brain. Fortunately this one has not had any adverse effects. True Will guided me to the correct help to achieve the best results and solve this problem. Not all drugs have the same effect obviously. It may take time to find the 'correct' one to treat the brain. One thing I find most often is that people think the drug is a fix all. To me, there is a separation between Mind and Brain. For the longest I have practiced cognitive therapy, optimism, buddhist principals, and other positive cognitive processes to enhance the Mind. But the Brain, the physical thing itself, was not operating properly. Now I can say my Mind AND Brain are on the same page. A drug without proper spiritual/philosophical/psychological guidance to assist cannot fix it all.

Back to throwing Reason out of the window. When people first point to spirits or demons or thought forms or curses as the source of mental illness, to me, is similar to the Dark Ages or the Puritan days. We now know the origins of many illnesses and how to treat them. I am not saying a curse or spirit or whatever cannot cause depression/suicide/etc, but I would say it is much rarer than the tv shows put on. I have also met individuals who are mentally ill and drug addicts who ATTRACT negative energy/spirits. But removing the spirit did nothing. It is the person who must be helped. There is also the role of karma. Also, a person may believe that a solution to mental illness is for it to heal through a spiritual means. This is incorrect as well. True Will manifests in the most practical manner, even if it be in finding proper professional help.

For someone who is depressed, look into cognitive therapy and thinking optimistically or spirituality, if that doesn't help, consult a professional, but blaming a spirit/demon/curse wouldn't be the most practical solution unless the person has been witness to some extreme paranormal events.

It has been interesting but a very powerful experience balancing atheism/Reason and magickal practice. My own depression was inherited. My Father and Grandfather has various illnesses/symptoms. Again, science/genetics, sheds light.

Great convo!

Natasha: I am not exactly sure about how much of what you wrote was a direct response to my last post, much less a set of objections thereto, but I will nonetheless orient my response around the specific points that you make, trying to glean what I take to be counterclaims against my points as best as I can; though, for the most part, I am in an enthusiastic accordance with much of what you say.

"I find that in the spiritual community, whether it be witches or magicians or whatever, Reason gets thrown out of the window. There is a thin line between fantasy and magick."

Here I wholeheartedly agree. Moreover, I would add that it's precisely this escape into fantasy, this cowardly retreat from clear thinking, that castrates the actual spiritual efficacy of our tradition, and prevents us from recognizing and cauterizing the inherent dangers therein. Although most modern occultists appear to lack the philosophical training or the authenticity of aspiration to truly devote themselves to a thorough study of the seminal texts of the tradition, the exaltation of reason--not the suppression thereof--to the "divine intelligence" (Greek: [I]nous) was, in fact, the purpose of theurgic ritual according to the recognizable progenitors of our tradition.


"As for pharm drugs to treat the brain. Fortunately this one has not had any adverse effects."

Which one is it? I've heard very good things about Lexapro.

"True Will guided me to the correct help to achieve the best results and solve this problem."

I believe you.

"For the longest I have practiced cognitive therapy, optimism, buddhist principals, and other positive cognitive processes to enhance the Mind. But the Brain, the physical thing itself, was not operating properly."

I do not, however, agree with your line of reasoning here. In fact, I am inclined to impute the cause of the persistence of your problem precisely to these methods of optimistic brainwashing. So I would not, thereafter, conclude that "the brain" wasn't operating properly; I would rather say that such optimistic brainwashing does violence to the integrity or wholeness of the psyche, that those negative judgements about the world must be met on their own terms, and not automatically dosed with self-deception--I find cognitive therapy especially shallow and irritating.

"When people first point to spirits or demons or thought forms or curses as the source of mental illness, to me, it is similar to the Dark Ages or the Puritan days."

It is indeed similar, but not identical. Furthermore, the attribution of daimonic causes to various maladies does not in anyway obviate the necessity of an observable physical symptom set for those maladies. From my experience with spirits and the astral plane, I personally cannot even comprehend a causal chasm between the physical and subtle worlds, and yet--as we agreed in our responses to the "Reality Manipulation" thread--the spiritual doesn't collapse or in any way subsume, the ordinary causal order of the physical world. With mental illnesses the situation is, however, often very different, as in such cases the attack comes from a level of ontological primacy. But please notice that in my last post I spoke in qualification, stating in so many words that surely not all cases of mental illness were actualized by that sort of demonic interference of which I accounted in my narrative.

"We now know the origins of many illnesses and how to treat them."

I disagree when it comes to psychiatric disorders; in fact, psychiatry is often criticized by medical researchers as having the least theoretical justfication for its treatment methods. Additionally, there is no conclusive theory organizing all of the various data relevant to a diagnosis of schizophrenia--and some researchers often prefer to say "the schizophrenias." Furthermore, the more refined "spiritists" theories of physical disorders did not, again, preclude a physically observable cause; spirits were not thought of as being the direct causes of a physical illness (for even the vikings believed that sickness was caused by microscopic "serpents"), but rather responsible for that person, getting that illness, at that time.

"I have also met individuals who are mentally ill and drug addicts who ATTRACT negative energy/spirits. But removing the spirit did nothing. It is the person who must be helped."

Yep, there is little point in throwing the spirit out onto the street while afterwards allowing the door to remain open.

"Also, a person may believe that a solution to mental illness is for it to heal through a spiritual means. This is incorrect as well."

I am not sure what you mean here by a "spiritual means."

"True Will manifests in the most practical manner, even if it be in finding proper professional help."

I agree.

"It has been interesting but a very powerful experience balancing atheism/Reason and magickal practice."

I just don't understand how reason and "atheism" are mutually implicit.

"My own depression was inherited. My Father and Grandfather has various illnesses/symptoms. Again, science/genetics, sheds light."

I feel odd speculating about your family members, but the inherited trait need not be say, a seritonin deficiency, but could equally well be more a complexity of factors such as a discerning intellect, above-average creative ability, or a tendency towards individualism--and please notice that in different environments, these factors need not lead to depression.



Great convo![/QUOTE]

I don't mean brainwashing optimism like Mr. Rogers. I try to see things as they are, with as little emotional bias as possible. It's a matter of positive thinking. I can either believe that I will succeed in college or tell myself/believe I will fail in college. Both create belief and emit energy. A tape recorder in my head talking negatively will not help me. Then again, I don't have to look in the mirror everyday and tell myself I am beautiful, lol. It's "processing information in a rational positive manner."

Environment does and has played a part in depression etc. Antidepressants may not be necessary forever. It does give my brain the proper serotonin to feel good and handle life easier. The drug is Celexa btw. To me, it is not a matter of how it got this way, as it matters how to get it better.

By "spiritual healing", I mean healing mental illness by willpower or spiritual means. For too long I tried to "fix it and handle it myself" with not much success. Although I learned incredible things in the process.

Atheism and Reason are not ALWAYS mutual. There are plenty of irrational dogmatic atheists not much different than a fundamentalist Christian. But the atheists I do admire and read uphold science and Reason. To me, Reason is the "Prometheus Flame". Or at least an aspect of it. Or as you stated, the Greeks believe the Psych/Reason is a gift from the Gods. That theurgy is to come to "Divine Genius". This is how I perceive the Higher Self/Ego. The healthy confident Ego/Intellect Genius. Therefore, to keep the Mind bright and burning like a flame is to do the same with Spirit.

The Brain and illnesses are indeed still being pioneered which is why I find it so fascinating. The Brain/Mind is still being debated and explored.

As for fantasy escapism....ehhh....that's sometimes why Atheism is a breath of fresh air after talking to wiccans or pompous magicians for a long time, lol

Natasha: All of it, incredibly well said

(Ah, I also cultivate a healthy interest in the academic consciousness studies disciplines, especially in the particular area of my own academic training, the philosophy of mind. In fact, my own physicalist inclinations met a quick death once I became acquainted with the desperate intellectual acrobatics through which physicalist philosophers such as Churchland, Ryle, and the infamous but ever amusing Daniel C. Dennett, were willing to contort themselves, simply to avoid the far reaching ramifications of the irreducibility of the phenomenal aspects of consciousness (qualia). Notice, though, that this is exactly where transcendental metaphysical systems would predict physical causal explanations, along with reductionism, to run into trouble.)

Let me rephrase that, I do not believe "magickal healing" is necessary or practical in all manners. A person can try to achieve healing through magick or use magick to point them in the right direction of the correct doctor/help. To me, I find the latter more practical. Mental illnesses, in my experiences and others, is incredibly tricky to "magickally heal". Don't get me wrong. I do believe in healing, but only in dire cases. I have witnessed and have been taught healing, although it is not my forte or my passion.

lol, I like what you said about Dennet and other physicalist. They do try to contort theory after theory to explain the Mind and fail utterly. That is why I have came to the conclusion that, most of all, the Mind is the greatest magickal source we have. All is Mind.

"I do not believe "magickal healing" is necessary or practical in all manners. A person can try to achieve healing through magick or use magick to point them in the right direction of the correct doctor/help. To me, I find the latter more practical. Mental illnesses, in my experiences and others, is incredibly tricky to "magickally heal"."

First, I think it would be useful to set a demarcation between mental illness, or maladies of psychological origin, and brain disorders, which would have prominently psychological symptoms, but of which the etiology could only be successfully discovered in organic malfunctions. With that said, I tend to think that mental illness proper need not necessarily be considered so negatively; perhaps it is only in a culture wherein external, social and economic functioning is so vital and idealogically reinforced that mental illness can take on such a higher-order negative evaluation from its sufferers, so that those so afflicted are not put in a position to acquire the requisite resources for their improvement, but, instead, only to amplify their problems by hating themselves for feeling crippled in their aspirations to live up the the standards imposed upon them. It could be argued that man's attempts to account for his intrinsic feelings of anxiety and emptiness are what have compelled his greastest and most sublime testimonies to the uniqueness and inexplicability of his condition. His religion, philosophy, and art have sprung from his discontentment with his immediately accessible possibilities of identification: awakening to that longing to be something more than a rationally efficient animal but not fully aware of the essence of that longing and thus despairing, man has deferred the impetus for instant gratification that his mere animal self counts as sufficient, and has risked his most basic well-being on the chance that, maybe, if his aspiration is cultivated, if it doesn't fail and collapse him into an irremediable hopelessness, that he, even he, might just come to recognize that the object of his transcendental longings is a reality, that the longing itself only existed because its object had already made itself present to him, somehow. I really despise all of this "modern" psychological pampering, as if a person should simply be a joyous little puppy without any sort of critical questioning about the fundamental terror with which his circumstances present themselves to him. If what I believe is in anyway true, if our lives do instantiate a series of transcendental processes that, in a way perhaps only fully realizable in abstraction from the human plane, could be rightfully called initiations, then we do ourselves little favor by nourishing our obsession for some superlative happiness, healing, and, to mimic Nietzsche's Zarathustra, "wretched contentment."

"That is why I have come to the conclusion that, most of all, the Mind is the greatest magickal source we have. All is Mind."

lol, Here you definitely don't sound like much of an atheist!

There are plenty to talk about in that reply. Hopefully I understood what you were stating.

There are psychological negatives that can be eased and transformed by therapy, philosophy, or having a fulfilling spirituality. These negatives not being based on organic imbalances but moreso external events/environment, or "bad thinking".

Contentment leads to stagnation. I do not believe one should be a joyful little puppy. At one time I hated myself for not progressing fast enough in life. No matter what I accomplished I was still below my ideal. I knew no contentment, but being a person of "becoming" and self-actualization the concept of contentment was weak. Then, coming out of depression and seeing the reality, it is not to have ABSOLUTE contentment, but I find appreciation/contentment for what I do have and have accomplished which allows me to become/progress in a positive beneficial manner. Contentment in the moment while still hungering for more.

Same goes for happiness. Many aim for a pot of gold..."if I had this I would be happy...". I have learned, why not be happy NOW and then? Being happy now certainly helps me achieve goals at a faster rate than being unhappy.

As for feelings of anxiety and nihilism, such an existential crisis is necessary, at least in my opinion, to find one's self/True Will and drive one to develop/explore/discover. "Dark Nights" are necessary for growth.

There is a line between "psychological pampering" and practical therapy. The line being what results manifest. Pampering would not lead to long-last positive results. Speaking for myself, the imbalances/clinical depression, has been a curse and a gift in my life. It has been the vehicle to the bottom of the pit, to nihilism, to spiritual searching, to severe critical thinking, to incredibly dark places in the mind/spirit. At the same time it has been a handicap and obstacle against achieving goals and being an emotionally sound and positive individual. Mentall illnesses do not always have to be perceived as such a negative thing. To me, it is a morbid gift, a challenge/opportunity for great growth.

As for not sounding Atheist. All is Mind can be seen as a solipsistic way, that reality is Maya/Illusion that is malleable to one's will. This is my spiritual perspective.

But from an atheist point of view, the Mind is our greatest asset, and if there is anything worth investing time/energy into, it is the Mind. To me, the Mind wasted is a truly terrible loss to Self and humanity.

First let me just say that it is a pleasure to converse with you

"There are psychological negatives that can be eased and transformed by therapy, philosophy, or having a fulfilling spirituality. These negatives not being based on organic imbalances but moreso external events/environment, or "bad thinking"."

I will not attempt to refute what you say above as I do not disagree with you. I would, nevertheless, like to add that there is a sharp difference between thinking "right" effortlessly, and filtering or manipulating one's occurrent thinking so as to make it conform with a set of therapeutic, philosophical, or spiritual standards (I mean in cases distinct from those in which one simply edits thoughts with "false" or improbable assumptions in accordance with already established "true" or more plausible principles). A confession must be made however: I am not permitted to affect my thinking with any cognitive action save for the desire for truth. They would silence me in instant if I came into the arena of mind with the sole or even primary purpose of affecting my thoughts in order to give the organism a more emotionally comfortable state. Sucks being me

"As for not sounding Atheist. All is Mind can be seen as a solipsistic way, that reality is Maya/Illusion that is malleable to one's will. This is my spiritual perspective."

lol, And just when I was coming under the impression that what I was reading were my very own words! I personally do not see how a tenable solispsist position can be propounded without resorting to far-out, epistemelogically skeptical scenarios. Moreover, "All is Mind" need not mean (should not mean!) that all phenomena are nothing but different modalities of one's individual, particularized mind, as the solipsist would have it. I myself do not regard the phenomenal world as an illusion--after all it could only be so if one construed it as something that it is not--; I think that at least the physical properties that we perceive in the phenomenal world are, indeed, the intrinsic properties--not to say, the only properties--of the various external objects. On top of all this, the solipsist is left with the heavy burden of explaining just how the various "modalities" of mentality that are normally not recognized as being of the mental, are in fact "hypostases" of her core referent: mind.

"But from an atheist point of view, the Mind is our greatest asset, and if there is anything worth investing time/energy into, it is the Mind. To me, the Mind wasted is a truly terrible loss to Self and humanity."

I couldn't begin to prescribe a primary goal to which all human effort ought to be devoted, but I would say, in my own case, that it is the Divine--though this concept does undoubtedly entail the mind (Amusingly, among the Neoplatonists noeton (intelligible by nous or transcendental intellect, but also the objectified aspect of nous, as nous was considered to be in a certain identity with its objects) and theion (divine) were synonyms. Nonetheless, the Neoplatonists did not consider nous an aspect of the psyche but rather present to the psyche by being its very foundational principle, or hyparxis--the Gods, however, were to them, essentially nous. The highest type of reasoning within the essential powers of psyche, according to these philosophers, was dianoia, which they believed to find its clearest expression in mathematics, where the human mind apprehends its own inherent functions. Ordinary practical and syllogistic reasoning was the function of logismos, mere reckoning through ideas instantiated in images.)
).

It has been a pleasure conversing with you as well.

There is that rhetorical question, "What is sane?". I suppose every person, group, and discipline has it's own answer. For me, it is rationality, similar to Stoicism. That my intellect/rationality dictate my emotions, rather than the opposite. I prefer to see the truth and see reality for what really is. Also to have the discipline and emotional intelligence to respond in a positive way to that. To Become, to progress, to hunger, to fuel the Inner Flame without my own emotions playing against True Will.

I suppose my view of the Universe lies somewhere between an Atheist's view and Hinduism. The Hindus believe the Universe is Maya. It is, in essence, energy, and we perceive that energy as the world around us. We are in a collective dream. All connected yet separate. We can either have a confused distorted ego wrapped up in attachment, maya, and repeating karma...or we can transcend, develop a healthy ego, learn non-attachment, and see reality. Magick is when Maya is altered by Self. True Will is the innermost connection to the Whole and one's "perfect winds/course" to progress. Unlike the RHP, I follow basic LHP principals focusing on Individualism, Self as God, and the older darker primal forces of spirituality. In easier words, Luciferian.

How that is slightly atheist is that I find "magick" to be just as much part of Nature as physics. And also, MUCH of magick/ritual are psychological methods to produce change in psyche.

What you said about NeoPlatoism resonates well with me. Do you have any solid resources on that philosophy?