Thread: Reason and Logos

I am a man of science, empiricism, and thought. I do not understand however, all of this insanity that goes on here. I'm an Atheist, what you people are talking about does not exist.

Can you prove any of this? Can you take a reading, scientifically, of anything you claim?
Please by all means, summon a demon in a lab. Take James Randis challenge, become a millonaire.

Most of what I see here for explanations are just hallucinations, neural misfirings, madness, magical thinking, terrible misunderstandings and erroneous conclusions as to what actual scientific findings have proven. Mostly quantum physics.

Listen, I've read things that other people have written. Great men, great thinkers, proving things, using actual thought and Science to understand our world. I paid a lot of money to have these things told to me and spent years reading and memorizing the things these people have found out. I GET physics!

So, prove to me, as much as any established scientific law, that this is real.

when i mix science and occult my head hurts. ok so here it is.
in the middle ages (aka dark ages) science as well as occultism were considered as a herecy. but later on as many scientists went public about their work, the inquisition had to make changes. they've stop pursuing the scientist. so the science went on. many great scientists rose after this change was made. but the church as a political institution still prohibited the occult science, cause it was bad for their rating, and it could shake down the ultimate power the church had in that time, and still has. so those that practiced occult stayed underground and kept silence and secret of what they were doing, opposite of the scientists who got the liberty to continue their work. it is still that way today. every achievement a scientist gets it goes public. but every achievement in the occult remains a secret for the person that did it or maybe some of his close occult friends, maybe his coven, maybe his order. the occult is still a topic that is not spoken in public. yes the books can be found in bookstores. but the ignorant people that dont know a thing about the occult, even if they read some occult book will say this is crap it makes no sense and will forget the contents of the book very soon. its like reading between the lines. a truth hidden in plain sight. and yet the church did irrepairable damage to this world. before the church anything connected to the occult was a common thing. but when the church rose to power it became the greatest secret. even if this world has seen much and experienced much it is still not ready to accept the truth behind the occult and embrace it as such. and dont you ever consider that were are not living in the dark ages ??? as long as the church exists this world will be in a dark age. they are still doing what the inquisition was doing but in a modern way. lets say some scientist is doing research on cloning. if he goes public, after few hours his funds will be cut off, his lab closed down. and if he is lucky he will only lose his carrier. think of the cloning research as of the occult. i wrote this down just to point out why things are the way they are. but as someone wise said long time ago: "nothing is impossible if you have faith in it"

Sometimes I get worried about that too Lady D. What if I'm just part of someone elses
life/dream? I suppose I am, the crest of a wave in the ocean of God, that will someday return to being calm water. Of course I'll just get blown up again by the winds.

I actually think that science and religion are the same thing but different approaches. They both seek answers, the one uses literal devices while the other uses metaphors. I can describe an orange as a sun fruit with bitter sweet tears or a tropical fruit that grows on trees and contains vitamn C. Either way.

I was just wondering how you would go about explaining your beliefs to an materialistic person, an atheist, or whatever. You know the type. "Science is all that matters and anything else is a mental disorder." I didn't think we had any people like that here so I did it myself.

What about undermining there belief in the absolute?

Look, things are "testable and repeatable" in the laboratory...but those tests are still subject to the statistics of probability.

I know quantum physics is a much bandied about concept by all sides...but the underlying concept is that NOTHING is absolute, merely statistically probable.

Now that you've cracked that belief, you introduce the concept of chaos and hence potential...chaos is chaotic because its nothing definite yet...and because its nothing definite, it can become anything. Its a relatively small step to sell the concept that a persons belief can in some way influence this "potential of choas" into manifesting according to will into the real world and bada bing bada boom...magic.

To be fair I think the concept of Chaos majic are easier so sell, because its very human centric, belief, will and so on. Talking of demons, angels and the astral plane is more difficult, unless you try to dress it up as aspects of the deep human subconscious. I think keeping matter occult "Human centric" is easier to start with...once they've bitten and if they quest themselves, they will find their own version of the truth.

No matter how much evidence one has for something it will always be distorted by our humanness. Our perception of the world around us, even in a controlled environment like a laboratory, is never objective because we will always be human. The danger in science is assuming to know the absolute truth, and confusing our human world view for the objective reality. This is the same attitude that had us all believing the world was flat.

That being said I am willing to accept the notion that there are forces beyond my understanding and perception. Since I am just a beginner in subjects pertaining to magick I can't tell you if I would include it in that catagory, but time shall tell.

Now your getting it.

Chaos and perception. The world is a hallucination brought on by brain chemicals. Nothing is true, everything is perception.

That being said I am willing to accept the notion that there are forces beyond my understanding and perception. Since I am just a beginner in subjects pertaining to magick I can't tell you if I would include it in that catagory, but time shall tell.

I don't think it really matters HOW you rationalize these "forces beyond control and comprehension"...at the end of the day, no human can ever fully grasp "absolute reality", that encompasses these funky forces.

The trick is how you trick yourself into believing something and then using it. You may stick with one paradigm only, change paradigms often or create your own.

The search for truth Is a fools game.

Fight scientific dogma with unbridled sarcasm, of course!

Zen... and the Art of Debunkery

Originally Posted by S33k3R

I don't think it really matters HOW you rationalize these "forces beyond control and comprehension"...at the end of the day, no human can ever fully grasp "absolute reality", that encompasses these funky forces.

Well how would one define what it is. For example forces beyond control could be anything. how ever putting it in terms of perspective by adding comprehension to it one would assume that you would be talking about forces like the spirit world god satan heaven and hell etc.

It is true as you say try as we might we will probably never be able to fully understand what is going on around us.

Well herein lies the crux of the problem...we are unable to clearly define any of the concepts you mentioned. Oh sure...hell is a lake of fire...thats useful.
My suspicion is that, a long time ago some monk saw a volcano erupt, saw the molten lava flow...smelt the sulphur, fire and brimstone and reckoned that this must be what hell looked like. He wrote it down and voila...hell is now a lake of fire.

We are forced to put such abstract concepts as "God", or "Hell" into terms that fit in with the human condition, because if people don't understand and conceptualize these things...we tend to just ignore them.

Mankind is inherently logical, which puts us at odds with the spiritual realm which is inherently illogical...well, as far as we are concerned it is.

We are trying to open the lid on reality that is fixed with delicate Hex bolts...in his infinite wisdom...god gave man a rubber mallet to do it with.