Thread: LaVey Rituals

Kain, if you are so convinced about everything and know within yourself, this to be true (what you are trying to relay, to us here), then why are you here on this occultforum...
It seems your journey is complete, with the knowledge you have. What is the point then at all of this..
From what I've understood, Occultism is a form or a journey of self discovery, that is like an internal drive of wanting to know more , wisdom or enlightenement....but there needs to be a more open 'Me' or mind 'Ego' driven by the 'Self' or Will, to discover other paths , to make ones own and a deeper allrounded understanding , not just about christianity...

However , again , it seems your path is complete...

Yes but think... If there is not a High Judge then I can kill someone and not get caught by the police.

Think, Hitler killed so many innocent people and got away with it by commiting suicide. Does this mean he didn't face judgement?

Atheism's teachings are that there is no Higher Judgement so you can do whatever you want as long as you are not caught by the police.

It's like saying "If you are smart enough to kill without getting caught then that's alright... you can do it".

We Christians believe that killing is wrong because only God who created us has the right to take our lives. Nobody else. Atheists always claim that they should not kill but they don't describe why. I mean, if you think killing is not a sin then why wouldn't you do it?

And about repentance and forgiveness. Yes, we Christians have this "luxury" because everybody should have a second chance and God gives second chances. You must know that there is nobody who is going to say "I will kill now and then I will repent and ask forgiveness from the God.".

The one who does something wrong just has the right to have a second chance if he really wouldn't do the same mistake again and he knows it was a mistake.

And who told you that religion does not bring peace. It also brings war because some people think that "love the other person" that Jesus said means "love the other person only if he agrees with you.".

This does not mean that Jesus really said "love the other person only if he agrees with you".

"We people"? So you are an atheist now or what? I don't get it why everyone who claims to be a Satanist / Paganist has always to be a lawyer for the atheists.

I just said that if you don't believe in God you have no reason to believe that you don't have to do a bad deed and I gave as an example the murder.

So, first you must be at least immature in order to be sure that there is no God up there and everything was created alone. The fact that you found some evidence that the God of the Bible (for example) does not exist, doesn't mean God does not exist at all. After all, the evidence you may have found are questioned by me and all the theists (not necessarily Christians).

Secondly, if you are sure there is no Creator then what holds you from killing? (except jail)

What holds you from lying?

What holds you from taking the other person's wife?

What holds you from stealing something? (except jail again)

I know religion not always can hold you, there are religious people that do all these things but in fact... they know they are not good humans (and Christians) in front of God and they will pay for it when they die. The one who repents is the one who deserves a second chance because nobody kills someone thinking that he will repent later and everything will be alright.

Jesus came to earth for many reasons. One of these reasons was to make people understand that some things in the Old Testament were not so correct and maybe they were added later for some reasons.

What I am trying to say is... Why do we argue about that? Is there a doubt that Jesus (Who is the representation of the God) was against all the evil deeds Christians have done through the centuries.

And something I wanna add... We don't know about the murders of the Satanists. The fact is that since they believe it's a sin not to follow the Satanic Calendar, each Satanic brotherhood kills a human each month. Just think how many people they may have killed these 2000+ years they exist.

(We don't know the exact date their Bible was written.)

Originally Posted by Kain

We Christians believe that killing is wrong because only God who created us has the right to take our lives. Nobody else. Atheists always claim that they should not kill but they don't describe why. I mean, if you think killing is not a sin then why wouldn't you do it?

And about repentance and forgiveness. Yes, we Christians have this "luxury" because everybody should have a second chance and God gives second chances. You must know that there is nobody who is going to say "I will kill now and then I will repent and ask forgiveness from the God.".

The one who does something wrong just has the right to have a second chance if he really wouldn't do the same mistake again and he knows it was a mistake.

And who told you that religion does not bring peace. It also brings war because some people think that "love the other person" that Jesus said means "love the other person only if he agrees with you.".

This does not mean that Jesus really said "love the other person only if he agrees with you".

The problem with religion, both esoteric beliefs and more mainstream beliefs, is that they are based on dogma. Dogma leaves no room for argument or interpretation. There is no discussion and no reasoning. You are correct in that it is a person's interpretation that causes terrible things to be done in the name of the Christian faith, but the structure of the faith means that once that person has a following then they cannot be questioned and neither can their beliefs which in turn leads to more atrocity. Faith is the problem with religion.

As for your very narrowly construed question about killing, lying, sleeping around, and stealing I don't think it is fair to exclude the legal ramifications. If you were honest with yourself I bet that the very real physical consequences of those actions are the primary motivator for not doing them as opposed to the eternal consequences ascribed to them by your faith. Also it should be pointed out that almost every civilization that has ever existed on this planet has agreed as a matter of social structure that stealing, killing, lying, and screwing your neighbor's wife are bad things. That moral code is not unique to Christianity. In fact the Code of Hammurabi, which predates the Abrahamic faiths by centuries, pretty much says that all that is legally wrong and says it without the benefit of having God dictate it to man.

I feel so fortunate that I never had to endure a chirstian upbringing...The most confused and unhappy people I have ever met, has been practising christians . I do feel sorry and empathy for them...

The damage is horrible, to some people I know, that are severely traumatised and years later work hard on: changing their fears, contious guilt for what ever they do, severe depression, etc..
It's not pretty to watch and hear their stories and the total confusion, what is wrong and right, as they can't seem to work out those things for themselves, since for years they've been told, what to do, by other people in the church and of course the overshadowing ( imaginery, man on the cloud) 'God' in the back ground, what ever they do....

Damage, Trauma and unhappy people, that's what I nowdays see that religion causing...

But hey Kain, if it works for you, great for you...I just don't think people will here somehow agree, as most are more aware of things, than the avarage person on the street and I think there are far better books to read than the confusing bible that has be re-written and changed so many times, that the question becomes : - what actually am I reading here anyway, what's the real deal...
And then just swtching to something else, that rings more true and actually makes sense in the bigger picture...

can we keep this on what the actual topic is...

if the rituals in LaVey are valid or not...

I don't think I should discuss this any more.

Maybe I am going to open a topic about Christianity so you will see what is the purpose behind it.

NOTE: Christianity and the Christian church are two completely different things.

Last, I wanna say that we know that everyone sins.

Christian sin too.

However they are hyprocrites if they ask forgiveness for a sin they know they will do again purposly.

I have sinned many times too, but I ask forgiveness only if I know I won't commit the same sin again (purposly).

If I know I will, then I ask no forgiveness because if I do it means I don't mean it and that I don't really care if God will forgive me.

All people are sinners and the fact that I am a Christian does not mean I am superior than the people that sin.

Originally Posted by Isabeau

Fear.

Classic...

Lavey explains in the satanic bible while he does this.
It is because people have the need for Dogma. Otherwise this religion would be called ''atheism'' or ''humanism''... The First Church of Satan had a quote that ''The human mind is too irrational for atheism to be a working religion''.
Even science has reached elements of mystery that can't be solved.

They are symbols. Satan represents the part of our being that is defiant of all that stops us from being the God within.
Lucifer represents our intellect which is above that of all species on this planet.
Belial represents the part of our mind that allows us to stand on our own feet
independently.
Leviathan is the mystery and depth of the spell.. the forces at work.

It is all in the mind. But your thoughts are real, even if they are not what
you are sensing with all of your senses. So in this case the rituals are
more like ''psychodrama''. The theatrics helping to empower us as they would
do in therapy.

The preference to help people is really all of one's own. I think the reason why they wouldn't go and help people is because of the fact of how satanism encourages you to take steps towards power... not to rely on others.