Thread: Devil Traps?

Originally Posted by Ghost of Shaolin

I suppose you got me on the Satanic Witch bit, as by definition one might say that they do believe in and work with demons and devils. But saying that Witchcraft is not inherently religious depends one one's definition of religion.

True- a lot of this debate comes down to the definitions people use.

Friends of mine who are traditional, natural, bloodline Witches do see it as a "religion" of sorts, as well as a way of life, code of conduct, etc.

That's a cultural thing- valid and relevant, but not universally true. It's a religion for them. It's not a religion for me. I'm not aware of any element of witchcraft that is dependant on a particular religion, in that it won't work if the practitioner is not also an adherant of that religion.

They do NOT believe in the notion of devils and demons in the Judeo-Christian-Islamic sense, nor in the concept of a Christian hell, which sort of alludes to the belief in devils and such. There's no "bad place" where all of the "bad things" live..

Same here, across the board!


[/QUOTE] You are correct with your interpretation of demon as coming from the Greek daimon (and latinized daemon.) Demons are guardian spirits, and each of us has one..[/QUOTE]

Okay....

.[/QUOTE] They are not goodor evil per se, which is in opposition to the standard Christian viewpoint of everything being evil unless it's been approved by the church. .[/QUOTE]

And again I agree.

So, I again contend that traditional Witches do not believe in demons, devils, etc.

Good for them, but you didn't say 'traditional' witches, you said 'true' witches- indicating that any witch who believed in demons wasn't really a witch.
With a bit of a question begged as to what one might mean by believing in the Judeo-Christian concept- some witches do Goetic work. Which generally comes under the heading of Ceremonial magic, but still....

And if you're using 'true' to mean 'traditional', does that mean that you only view 'traditional' witches as being 'true' witches?

I would say that the core tenets and the foundation of Witchcraft itself are older than Christianity as an organized religion. Most every fundamental element of Withcraft is older than Christianity, as is the case with every tradition that works with the natural world (Daoism included), rather than believing it's just here for us to control and use as we see fit. Also, most traditions and systems that do not have such sharply defined notions of good and evil are older than Christianity.

Great.
What are these core tenets and what is the foundation of Witchcraft?
What are the fundamental elements of Witchcraft?
Is there anything specific to Wtichcraft, and how can we know that?

Originally Posted by Seehiah

I think we're looking at a terminology problem here.
Can I ask what you mean by 'witch', 'witchcraft' and 'the Craft'?

I'm asking because, at the time the word 'witch' came into common use, it specifically meant someone who had made a deal with the Christian concept of the devil.
It doesn't have that meaning now, but what exactly it does mean is not always clear- it means different things to different people.

You refer to yourself as a witch, and you have nothing to do with anything relating to devils/demons, etc. That's great, cool, groovy and entirely your own business- but do you really feel equal to saying that anyone who does is NOT a witch at all?
They aren't the same type of witch that you are, but that doesn't make them 'Not a witch'.

Also, what elements of Witchcraft do you believe to be older than Christianity?

Incidentaly, 'demon' is also from a Greek word- 'daemon' (I don't have a Greek font on this computer). It simply means a spirit of some type that is somewhere between gods and humans. The personification of Death is a daemon, for instance. Angels can be thought of as daemons.

(And devils, Satan, demons and the mythology of Jesus are all themselves older than the Christian concepts of them.)

I am again a hereditary traditional pictish gypsy Witch my mother was one her mother was one her mmother before her was one.
It orginally started in Egypt as an alternative type of belief system of people who were of unwealthy stature who did not want to bend a knee to the pharoah they combined natural medicinal tincture brews and remedys with divination and worship of nature with a combination of superstitions myths and lore. There were killed and the ones who escaped went down the middle eastern countries and eventually came the BFE way to Europe Before taken a stop or 2 along the way including to Romania then some eventually settled a little while in the what we know as the Celtic lands. These people sufferd at the hands of the Christian revolutions many were spread out dispersed many different ways they say to the 4 winds. Europeans labeled them "Witches" Definition.
Middle English wicche, from Old English wicca, masculine, wizard & wicce, feminine, witch; akin to Middle High German wicken to bewitch, Old English wigle divination, and perhaps to Old High German translates to Wise one. The craft Skill in doing or making something from something else or a combination of things. Magical craft Witch-craft Skill in energys making something or doing something with a intent and purpose using magical energys to change bless or anoint or hex or curse a initial outcome.
Now Witches never did believe in the devil and never did conjure the Devil or demons never ever ever ever.. Also you never stated nor did I the true meaning of Demon because we was both talking about the "Christian Concept" wasnt we?
Like I said before if someone is a "Devil Worshiping" Witch I wish them all the best.
But techincally they are not a Witch they would be more of a sorcerer with a Devilworshiping theme.
The 2 concepts and we are speaking of the Christian concept like I have stated several times now. Cancels each other out.
I am in no means saying someone cannot claim to be or want to be or actually practise both. I am stating that if they did then there a Witch 1st Or Devil worshiper 1st then a practising Witch or Devil worshiper I am not talking about Satanist Witches But the Devil from the Bible Worshipers
Googling I am afraid wont probably explain this clearly for you. Because Celts.Romanians,Unwealthy Egyptians and many other cultures did not write alot of stuff down. Instead passed knowledge in song,rhyme & stories..
I would also like to point out we was never talking about the Theology,orgins or connections or similaritys between the Christian concept and other beliefs.
Now types of "Witches" there are different types just like there different aspects and types of Christianity but there generally all from the same belief.
There Kitchen witches and Garden witches and Candle Witches and Chanting Witches,Solitary,Covens but all the different types came later because of the fact back in the day Candles was expensive and rare goods were hard to come by, So they used what they had at that time. Modern world candles can be cheap as a quarter. We need herbs we go to the market or send for em through emails. We didnt have that ability back then.
I hope this clears up your confusion on the concept of my familys beliefs.
Also thank you Ghost for your knowledge and helpful information also on the subject and your respect and knowledge of individual beliefs.

Perhaps I should have clarified my position. Yes, I am speaking of "traditional European" Witchcraft (although, as Broomhilda mentioned, these origins can be traced beyond the European continent) and some commonalities thereof. Regarding foundational/fundamental elements, I am referring to practices in these traditions that could be said to stem from "shamanic" principles, although that's not really the word that I want to use here. I would hold to my position that Witchcraft does in fact have elements that pertain to a particular religion, and that religion is Witchcraft itself. It is more than a religion, of course, and is a way of life. That being said, the relevance of things "working" for someone, regardless of their adherence to a particular religion implies an external system (religion as it's commonly understood) superimposed over the belief system of an ancient tradition, and the things that would "work" in that case would be spells, charms, incantations, etc. To me, this falls more in the realm of general sorcery rather than "Witchcraft" per se, and also suggests that Witchcraft is comprised primarily of the aforementioned elements. This is something that every Witch knows is not true. So-called magick is only a part of Witchcraft as a whole, just as meditation and kung fu are only aspects of overall Daoist practice. At the end of the day, one can call themselves and their practice whatever they want, and discussions along these lines are largely matters of semantics (and maybe epistemology?), which is not what I'm looking to get into here. But I do appreciate your insights and the valid points and questions you've raised in this discussion.

Originally Posted by Ghost of Shaolin

Perhaps I should have clarified my position. Yes, I am speaking of "traditional European" Witchcraft (although, as Broomhilda mentioned, these origins can be traced beyond the European continent) and some commonalities thereof. Regarding foundational/fundamental elements, I am referring to practices in these traditions that could be said to stem from "shamanic" principles, although that's not really the word that I want to use here. I would hold to my position that Witchcraft does in fact have elements that pertain to a particular religion, and that religion is Witchcraft itself. It is more than a religion, of course, and is a way of life. That being said, the relevance of things "working" for someone, regardless of their adherence to a particular religion implies an external system (religion as it's commonly understood) superimposed over the belief system of an ancient tradition, and the things that would "work" in that case would be spells, charms, incantations, etc. To me, this falls more in the realm of general sorcery rather than "Witchcraft" per se, and also suggests that Witchcraft is comprised primarily of the aforementioned elements. This is something that every Witch knows is not true. So-called magick is only a part of Witchcraft as a whole, just as meditation and kung fu are only aspects of overall Daoist practice. At the end of the day, one can call themselves and their practice whatever they want, and discussions along these lines are largely matters of semantics (and maybe epistemology?), which is not what I'm looking to get into here. But I do appreciate your insights and the valid points and questions you've raised in this discussion.

couldnt say it better myself
Witchcraft in and of itself is a way of life and a belief system not exactly what todays society would categorize as a "religion".
I just have a knee jerk reaction to anyone saying that I worship the biblical Satan or commune with the biblical "demons" so many women have been put to death and accused of this type of thing and forced to confess this type of belief that it sorta raises an eyebrow and creates a reaction when people to this day still claim Witches are evil or worshipers or something as dark as the biblical christian devils and demonics.

I can't imagine what, 'witchcraft,' might mean if someone didn't believe in some sort of spirit or spirits. However, there is also the, 'craft,' part of witchcraft, which is simply practical.

Point taken.

Originally Posted by Broomhilda

I am again a hereditary traditional pictish gypsy Witch my mother was one her mother was one her mmother before her was one.
It orginally started in Egypt as an alternative type of belief system of people who were of unwealthy stature who did not want to bend a knee to the pharoah they combined natural medicinal tincture brews and remedys with divination and worship of nature with a combination of superstitions myths and lore. There were killed and the ones who escaped went down the middle eastern countries and eventually came the BFE way to Europe Before taken a stop or 2 along the way including to Romania then some eventually settled a little while in the what we know as the Celtic lands. These people sufferd at the hands of the Christian revolutions many were spread out dispersed many different ways they say to the 4 winds. Europeans labeled them "Witches" Definition.
Middle English wicche, from Old English wicca, masculine, wizard & wicce, feminine, witch; akin to Middle High German wicken to bewitch, Old English wigle divination, and perhaps to Old High German translates to Wise one. The craft Skill in doing or making something from something else or a combination of things. Magical craft Witch-craft Skill in energys making something or doing something with a intent and purpose using magical energys to change bless or anoint or hex or curse a initial outcome.
Now Witches never did believe in the devil and never did conjure the Devil or demons never ever ever ever.. Also you never stated nor did I the true meaning of Demon because we was both talking about the "Christian Concept" wasnt we?
Like I said before if someone is a "Devil Worshiping" Witch I wish them all the best.
But techincally they are not a Witch they would be more of a sorcerer with a Devilworshiping theme.
The 2 concepts and we are speaking of the Christian concept like I have stated several times now. Cancels each other out.
I am in no means saying someone cannot claim to be or want to be or actually practise both. I am stating that if they did then there a Witch 1st Or Devil worshiper 1st then a practising Witch or Devil worshiper I am not talking about Satanist Witches But the Devil from the Bible Worshipers
Googling I am afraid wont probably explain this clearly for you. Because Celts.Romanians,Unwealthy Egyptians and many other cultures did not write alot of stuff down. Instead passed knowledge in song,rhyme & stories..
I would also like to point out we was never talking about the Theology,orgins or connections or similaritys between the Christian concept and other beliefs.
Now types of "Witches" there are different types just like there different aspects and types of Christianity but there generally all from the same belief.
There Kitchen witches and Garden witches and Candle Witches and Chanting Witches,Solitary,Covens but all the different types came later because of the fact back in the day Candles was expensive and rare goods were hard to come by, So they used what they had at that time. Modern world candles can be cheap as a quarter. We need herbs we go to the market or send for em through emails. We didnt have that ability back then.
I hope this clears up your confusion on the concept of my familys beliefs.
Also thank you Ghost for your knowledge and helpful information also on the subject and your respect and knowledge of individual beliefs.

Well, you've... certainly covered all the bases there....

And relax- I don't think anyone's calling you a devil-worshipper! Working with something is not the same as worshipping it.

But we are indeed going off-topic- anyone want to wander over to the Witchcraft boards to continue? I'm particularly interested in your ideas about these heretical Egyptians....

so sorry Iza you are correct.
Witches do not use "Devil traps"

I could rather use a trap to catch a couple possums.

Just to add in my thoughts an info based on my personal experience....

Demons (properly spelled DAEMON) is a word made up by a religion that believes anything that isn't of their god, in their eyes it is a demon; a monster that will trick you an try it's absolute best to steal your soul, whatever the means or it's intentions, the end result is the damnation or corruption of your spirit.

In truth, the word is just their way of saying "I judge this to be evil because I think this being is ugly". To quote a character from Legacy of Kain SoulReaver 2, "They fear what they do not understand, and they despise what they fear" (Janos Audron, Reaver Guardian, The last of the Ancient Vampires). So, whatever the word is, be it "Devil" or "Demon", it is not what they are referred to as.

All beings/entities that exist on planes/realms/dimensions are simply in a much higher state of self awakening, to call them "Demons" or "Devils" is no more different than walking up to Buddha an calling him a "lard infested pig with brains no greater than that of a slug". All beings deserve respect, regardless of who or what they are. You show them respect an they shall return in kind. And yes, the same applies even for spirits that are causing some hell in your life.